2020 Orioles draft review: Elias ends up with three first round talents

[Explosivo]

Again, I've never talked to the kid. I just saw it as a red flag. Just my gut. That's all we have so far away from their impact. Kjerstad reminds me of the core players we have that will be difference makers down the road. Grayson Rodriguez, Means, Baumann, Adley, etc. These guys have a certain vibe and the clubhouse really matters with winning teams. We saw that with our last core of Schoop, Markakis, Jones, etc. Or going way back to the Robinsons, Palmer, etc from the 60s. We are a rebuild, that also means rebuilding a culture. Some guys fit in it, some dont. I think Martin will be a good player but I dont think he would be a good fit on this team. Just me take. I'm new to this, first draft I've really watched. First time I've watched interviews on players, etc. But in my line of work, I need to be a good judge of character and know how to read people. Like I said earlier, it's more than just the shirt. It's the interviews. It's his answers. I didn't get a sense of someone who really "got it" with Martin whereas with Kjerstad, this is a guy who is a real blue collar, hard working dude who in every interview talks about being a good teammate. I value that greatly. When splitting hairs between top talents, personality plays. When you can afford to be in a position as the Orioles were fortunate to split hairs like that, personality plays. So far in every situation Kjerstad has been blessed to be a part, he has shined, been the best. That shows me something. I think that's indicative of things to come and when you combine all that with him being a lefty bomber in Camden, that spells great success.

 

Martin is a guy who has no real set position. His arm is iffy, his power is iffy, and the days of the 5 tool player are largely over, especially in Baltimore. Our style is superb pitching and power bats. Always has been. 

When you factor in the ability to get him for a less pricey tag and really get two huge gems in the 4th and 5th, I really dont see a downside at all. 

Again, I'm new to this, but I'm going with my gut and my ability to read people. If I had the pick, I would have gone with Lacy as I feel he is a similar personality as Rodriguez, but I understand not taking a more risky option in a pitcher than an everyday middle of the lineup bat.

Martin however projects to be a 1 or 2 hitter used as a more of a setup guy. All well and good to get on base but then you need to drive him in. That's a tougher chance than just cranking it or getting a walk. I'm good with Kjerstad and I think you all should be too.

Also, I think this pick and future picks is a great indicator of the pitching talent we currently have. If the season actually happens and we do what we likely will and be in last place, we are looking at Rocker. I like the idea of Rocker, Rodriguez, Hall, Means, and Baumann as a hell of a rotation. We needed the bats and we got em.

Edited June 13, 2020 by Explosivo

[lovetoaster]

33 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I didn’t watch the draft (after the O’s pick) and didn’t see the t-shirt.    I do believe intangibles matter.    But I don’t think you judge them from a t-shirt.    (Well, maybe if it said “Selfish and Proud” like some a-hole I saw carrying a sign on TV a couple weeks ago, I’d make a judgment about that.)    But all the reports I’d read pre-draft about Martin’s demeanor and will to win were positive.    And like I said, his supposed “something missing” didn’t seem to stop Vandy from winning the CWS.

Quit judging me on the sign I was carrying. I didn't know I was going to be on TV. 

[Ohfan67]

1 hour ago, Eric-OH said:

Thanks for having a different opinion.  I respect yours too.  Still never had coffee.  Don’t know what saccharine means.  You happy with the draft?

I’m not particularly happy with the draft. Don’t hate it, but don’t love it. There was evidence that Houston got “too cute” and out smarted themselves a couple of times while drafting and were basically saved by an injury here or there...basically luck with a screwed up pick and with some development.  I think Elias is likely to zig when others zag and make somewhat odd picks on a regular basis. There are a lot of stochastic factors at play with injuries being the obvious one so there’s only so much a GM can do to stack the deck in their favor.  That said I sure hope Elias made data driven decisions Instead of relying on the, in my opinion, extremely meaningless and biased stuff you guys were discussing. Elias was supposedly hired to Use analytics to evaluate and develop players, not worry about slogans on clothes and what not. 

[Ohfan67]

1 hour ago, Eric-OH said:

Thanks for having a different opinion.  I respect yours too.  Still never had coffee.  Don’t know what saccharine means.  You happy with the draft?

Saccharine is artificial sweetener. 

[Greg Pappas]

10 hours ago, Explosivo said:

I think what gets lost here is the type of teammate a player is as well as the type of talent a player shows. We only see the latter but we must never discount the former. Austin Martin while good on paper may very well be a tough guy to peg for this reason. Everything I have seen from Kjerstad is a guy who has taken every opportunity to not only make himself better by facing varied competition but also has a great desire to be a great teammate in the clubhouse. That type of difference is impossible to illustrate in video clips. His desire to wear that "more than just an athlete" shirt for draft day just rubbed me the wrong way. While I think he will be successful, I think it's important to note some interesting red flags that may arise in the future with a fella like that. In every interview when asked about what Kjerstad brings to the table he makes sure to note his desire to be a good teammate. I know it's probably not going to resonate with you guys but I think back to the poster who saw Bryce Harper play. Here is a guy who everyone saw was an incredible talent but the things we dont see which later arose with Harper were his impossibility to be a good teammate. He stated that Harper will never win a WS and I agree. We saw that with him fighting in the clubhouse and that's only the public display we saw at a game. Elias is building something special in Baltimore by bringing in quality players who will also work well with each other. Adley also indicated exactly the same type of characteristics as well as Rodriguez. These are high quality players from exceptional families who are mature beyond their years. They will approach the game in a different way. We are years away from proving any of this will bear out but I am ecstatic at Kjerstad being the guy who will make you guys proud. I firmly believe the Orioles will contend for a WS within five years. John Means is another guy who exemplifies these qualities. These are the players that Elias is targeting and I think it's the Oriole way just as it was of our past greatness in the 60s. You can not coach personality. You either have it or you do not. I think after talking with the players the way the scouts have, you can see that very clearly. I'm not at the point to say that Martin will be a cancer in the clubhouse. I dont think that's fair to levy on a kid, but I could see glimpses of something that did not sit right. Time will tell but when you look at the type of power hitter to succeed at Camden, it's difficult to look at Kjerstad not projecting perfectly in Baltimore. I think we will all be pleasantly surprised with this kid and I think Elias chose very wisely with this kid.

Wow... "...a fella like that."  Interesting. So, as you say, "Everything I have seen from Kjerstad is a guy who has taken every opportunity to not only make himself better by facing varied competition but also has a great desire to be a great teammate in the clubhouse." Yet, nothing you have seen points to the exact same from Martin? 

Quote

Vanderbilt head coach Tim Corbin on Martin: “Austin is as competitive as any player that we have had at Vanderbilt. He loves and survives in the arena of competition and does not back down. He could virtually play any position on the field and play it well – he is very instinctual and keeps the game simple. He loves the team environment and communicates very well with his teammates. I am most proud of his growth away from the field, he has really developed academically and as a leader in this program.”

That was simple enough to find. 

Here's more from SI.com, 

Quote

NASHVILLE, Tenn. – Austin Martin knows this week will indeed be a dream of his come true. He only wishes more of his friends and teammates could be alongside him for a once-in-a-lifetime moment.

“It’s unfortunate, again, that I couldn’t be here with my team and I couldn’t experience this moment and share it with them,” Martin recently told WKRN, “but I look forward to it and being with my family.”

Martin, Vanderbilt’s former star utility player, is expected to be selected among the first picks of the 2020 MLB Draft which begins at 6 p.m. Wednesday on ESPN and the MLB Network and continues at 4 p.m. Thursday. A 6-foot, 170-pound junior, Martin’s abilities at the plate and in the field have made him a prime prospect for the future plans of Major League Baseball clubs.

His competitive drive sets him apart from most of the others in his draft class.

“I think when you go watch a player of (Martin’s) skill level – I don’t think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out what he’s good at – so that is why you like him. To me, the other end of that equation is how he became that way,” MLB Network analyst Dan O’Dowd said. “You really dig into his past and how he became the player that he is – that tells you what kind of player you’re going to get and how that player’s talent is going to affect other players around him more than just his own ability to compete.”

Hmmmm.... again, interesting.

Everything I've read and listened to from every major analyst, coach, or teammate paint Martin as a leader that pushes his teammates to be their best.  He wants to win badly and has worked very hard to get where he is, while trying to get his teammates or "family" as he calls them, to rise with him.  He has played against the best competition at all levels. Talent aside, he is everything you say Kjerstad is, yet you see Kjerstad an an upstanding fella and Martin as, well, a fella like that... a red flag, because...? Oh yeah, Martin wore a tee shirt supporting a just cause that every GM in baseball supported during the draft. Or is it because you believe Kjerstad comes from, "exceptional families," and will make us proud, but Martin does not and will not? 

I replied because you clearly painted one player one way, and another in a different way, by using many comparable terms and phrases. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I'll assume you haven't read enough about Martin and his qualities.

[CallMeBrooksie]

2 hours ago, beantownrefugee said:

If Martin had worn a Don't Tread On Me hat, would you feel the same way?

I also saw a red flag with Martin choosing to use the biggest moment of his career thus far to make a political statement.  Some want their entertainers to be in line with their own politics. I personally just want to watch baseball. I don't want the drama. To each their own.

Explain to me how a 'Don't Tread on Me' has anything at all to do with Martin's shirt and I'll consider answering that question.

By the way.. the Baltimore Orioles themselves released an official statement in STRONG support of the very thing that Austin Martin, and damn near the whole world at this point save for a few, is taking a stand against right now. Are you upset about that as well? What baseball game did Austin Martin disrupt you from watching with his shirt that has been loudly supported by both the Orioles and the MLB?

If we really want to nitpick and project unfairly on these guys, maybe it's a red flag that Kjerstad came out and said "I'm going to be an impact player for sure..." One could argue he sounds a bit cocky, like he's already got it all figured out.

Apologies in advance to @Tony-OH and @weams because this is all clearly leads to political discussion, but I thought the characterization of Martin here was much too unfair to leave it alone.

[interloper]

Callis has the Os #4 in best drafts.

 

[Frobby]

9 minutes ago, Eric-OH said:

Please keep this in mind for everyone who thinks we just passed up Jeter for Rowell again....

 

Or do we only like Callis when he says things we agree with?

That’s true of all the analysts.   

[beantownrefugee]

56 minutes ago, CallMeBrooksie said:

Explain to me how a 'Don't Tread on Me' has anything at all to do with Martin's shirt and I'll consider answering that question.

By the way.. the Baltimore Orioles themselves released an official statement in STRONG support of the very thing that Austin Martin, and damn near the whole world at this point save for a few, is taking a stand against right now. Are you upset about that as well? What baseball game did Austin Martin disrupt you from watching with his shirt that has been loudly supported by both the Orioles and the MLB?

If we really want to nitpick and project unfairly on these guys, maybe it's a red flag that Kjerstad came out and said "I'm going to be an impact player for sure..." One could argue he sounds a bit cocky, like he's already got it all figured out.

Apologies in advance to @Tony-OH and @weams because this is all clearly leads to political discussion, but I thought the characterization of Martin here was much too unfair to leave it alone.

Great, so having baseball players espouse your politics is important to you. I said I don't want politics and baseball to mix -- no matter where he is on the political spectrum.

Personally I thought your response to new Orioles Hangout poster Explosivio was much too unfair to leave alone, such as reading into "a fella like that" and certainly implying Explosivio's statements as racially derogatory.  He clearly has researched Martin via videos etc, and presented his take on Martin as a teammate. 

[joelala]

1 hour ago, ScGO's said:

You are exactly right.  That's the lunge.  From its starting point, his head goes back, dips as it comes forward and then pops back up again right after contact.  

Now take this Pujols video, put your mouse icon on his head, and sit back and don't touch it.  I bet his head doesn't deviate from that icon.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Greg Pappas said:

Wow... "...a fella like that."  Interesting. So, as you say, "Everything I have seen from Kjerstad is a guy who has taken every opportunity to not only make himself better by facing varied competition but also has a great desire to be a great teammate in the clubhouse." Yet, nothing you have seen points to the exact same from Martin? 

That was simple enough to find. 

Here's more from SI.com, 

Hmmmm.... again, interesting.

Everything I've read and listened to from every major analyst, coach, or teammate paint Martin as a leader that pushes his teammates to be their best.  He wants to win badly and has worked very hard to get where he is, while trying to get his teammates or "family" as he calls them, to rise with him.  He has played against the best competition at all levels. Talent aside, he is everything you say Kjerstad is, yet you see Kjerstad an an upstanding fella and Martin as, well, a fella like that... a red flag, because...? Oh yeah, Martin wore a tee shirt supporting a just cause that every GM in baseball supported during the draft. Or is it because you believe Kjerstad comes from, "exceptional families," and will make us proud, but Martin does not and will not? 

I replied because you clearly painted one player one way, and another in a different way, by using many comparable terms and phrases. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I'll assume you haven't read enough about Martin and his qualities.

Thank you. 

[lovetoaster]

54 minutes ago, Eric-OH said:

Again, I respect your opinion.  Thanks for referring to my stuff as meaningless and biased.  I respect your opinion. I’m allowed to not like a certain player based on any reasons I have.  Meaningless or actual.  Just like you.  I respect your opinion and wouldn’t label your justification as meaningless or biased.  I have no bias.  I’ve never seen Martin play, only interviewed several times.  Based on that I was less than impressed.  When I watch guys already in the system I’m almost always impressed.  That’s a lack of a fit right there.  To me.

If your years of experience watching Martin and interacting with O’s players told you something different, I’d listen.  And I’d be open to learning somethings from another person.  
 

I’d hope anyone in a management position does things a bit different than posters on a website.  I got an Austin Martin card in a pack this afternoon and I’d be glad to send it to you free of charge.  
 

What kind of card is that? Those look pretty nifty. 

[Explosivo]

3 hours ago, Greg Pappas said:

Wow... "...a fella like that."  Interesting. So, as you say, "Everything I have seen from Kjerstad is a guy who has taken every opportunity to not only make himself better by facing varied competition but also has a great desire to be a great teammate in the clubhouse." Yet, nothing you have seen points to the exact same from Martin? 

That was simple enough to find. 

Here's more from SI.com, 

Hmmmm.... again, interesting.

Everything I've read and listened to from every major analyst, coach, or teammate paint Martin as a leader that pushes his teammates to be their best.  He wants to win badly and has worked very hard to get where he is, while trying to get his teammates or "family" as he calls them, to rise with him.  He has played against the best competition at all levels. Talent aside, he is everything you say Kjerstad is, yet you see Kjerstad an an upstanding fella and Martin as, well, a fella like that... a red flag, because...? Oh yeah, Martin wore a tee shirt supporting a just cause that every GM in baseball supported during the draft. Or is it because you believe Kjerstad comes from, "exceptional families," and will make us proud, but Martin does not and will not? 

I replied because you clearly painted one player one way, and another in a different way, by using many comparable terms and phrases. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I'll assume you haven't read enough about Martin and his qualities.

Those are quotes from others and from those who are selling the kid to scouts and to prognosticators. I'd say they are a bit biased dont you think? What are they going to say and why at that point would the say anything negative at all? My point is find one interview where Martin has said that teammates and comradeship matter and are an important part of his game. You can't. Meanwhile Kjerstad goes out of his way to say that's one of the parts about his game and his personality. I'm damn thrilled with Kjerstad and I do believe you will be too. I think he fits the culture perfectly and will be great in the clubhouse. Guys like Mancini and Means and Adley and Grayson are the type of guys I think Elias is building a culture around. I think Kjerstad will fit in perfectly with that group and they will all be better because of it. Martin had some red flags outside of his personality anyway. He had no real position at Vandy. He couldnt lock down a single one in college. His arm is weak so centerfielder would be a defensive liability, he couldnt lock down third or short in college so he'd be a liability there and he didn't display much power. He is fast but not that fast. Hes more instinctual and he runs the bases well. These are all coachable but the things he lacks you cant coach. 

 

Time will tell but I am thrilled with Kjerstad and the fact that we got a deal on a better player to get two more is the smart strategy for a shortened draft. Elias hit a homerun 3-5 years from now I think you will feel the same way.

I also think he really wanted Bitsko and the fact he was taken two picks earlier kinda threw a wrench in our plans but we ended up better up the middle and with more power potential bats but that's the uncertainty you get with drafting against top teams in the majors. Bitsko was one of those cant miss guys and others thought so as well.

I also didn't realize saying "a fella like that" was an affront to anyone. I only meant that it is indicative of his personality. Everything matters when you have the number two pick. You can afford to split hairs. I look at body language too. I look at family. I look at background. It all matters when figuring out who someone really is versus who someone wants you to believe. I have to do this for a living. It's part of what I get paid to do. I am good at it and i think i have Martin pegged. Time will tell but i have strong convictions for why i am right.

Edited June 13, 2020 by Explosivo

[Greg Pappas]

4 minutes ago, Explosivo said:

Those are quotes from others and from those who are selling the kid to scouts and to prognosticators. I'd say they are a bit biased dont you think? What are they going to say and why at that point would the say anything negative at all? My point is find one interview where Martin has said that teammates and comradeship matter and are an important part of his game. You can't. Meanwhile Kjerstad goes out of his way to say that's one of the parts about his game and his personality. I'm damn thrilled with Kjerstad and I do believe you will be too. I think he fits the culture perfectly and will be great in the clubhouse. Guys like Mancini and Means and Adley and Grayson are the type of guys I think Elias is building a culture around. I think Kjerstad will fit in perfectly with that group and they will all be better because of it. Martin had some red flags outside of his personality anyway. He had no real position at Vandy. He couldnt lock down a single one in college. His arm is weak so centerfielder would be a defensive liability, he couldnt lock down third or short in college so he'd be a liability there and he didn't display much power. He is fast but not that fast. Hes more instinctual and he runs the bases well. These are all coachable but the things he lacks you cant coach. 

 

Time will tell but I am thrilled with Kjerstad and the fact that we got a deal on a better player to get two more is the smart strategy for a shortened draft. Elias hit a homerun 3-5 years from now I think you will feel the same way.

I also think he really wanted Bitsko and the fact he was taken two picks earlier kinda threw a wrench in our plans but we ended up better up the middle and with more power potential bats but that's the uncertainty you get with drafting against top teams in the majors. Bitsko was one of those cant miss guys and others thought so as well.

Smh... I didn't realize that everyone who has said he is a great teammate are exaggerating the truth. A bunch of phonies and liars obviously. AND Martin never conducted an interview that discussed that particular topic. Wow. Gotcha. You even question his talents... despite all evidence to the contrary. Your words and agenda are revealing.  I'm done with this. 

[Explosivo]

3 hours ago, Greg Pappas said:

Wow... "...a fella like that."  Interesting. So, as you say, "Everything I have seen from Kjerstad is a guy who has taken every opportunity to not only make himself better by facing varied competition but also has a great desire to be a great teammate in the clubhouse." Yet, nothing you have seen points to the exact same from Martin? 

That was simple enough to find. 

Here's more from SI.com, 

Hmmmm.... again, interesting.

Everything I've read and listened to from every major analyst, coach, or teammate paint Martin as a leader that pushes his teammates to be their best.  He wants to win badly and has worked very hard to get where he is, while trying to get his teammates or "family" as he calls them, to rise with him.  He has played against the best competition at all levels. Talent aside, he is everything you say Kjerstad is, yet you see Kjerstad an an upstanding fella and Martin as, well, a fella like that... a red flag, because...? Oh yeah, Martin wore a tee shirt supporting a just cause that every GM in baseball supported during the draft. Or is it because you believe Kjerstad comes from, "exceptional families," and will make us proud, but Martin does not and will not? 

I replied because you clearly painted one player one way, and another in a different way, by using many comparable terms and phrases. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I'll assume you haven't read enough about Martin and his qualities.

I'm not the only who feels his arm is iffy and his power is iffy. These are things he displayed as a player. He also is a player without a position. His best use is second base. I'm good on a non power threat second baseman who can get on a base. That type of player does not differentiate your team and it certainly isn't worth a #2 pick. So then you start looking at intangibles and there are red flags for me. That grades him lower in my book but what do I know? I'm not a scout. I'm just a fan of the O's and strongly want to share a world series with my dad before he kicks the bucket. Of course I painted each player differently. It's called analysis.  

Neither has Kjerstad. They asked him what he brought to the table, he said three things, my power bat, my athleticism and my ability to be a good teammate. Go look at the interview with Martin done in january 24th. He was asked the same exact question and he did not say being a good teammate. I'm just going by gut feeling and my the limited information I have before me. Vandy coach is a homer who is selling his kid. Especially so close to the draft, there is no way he would choose to say something negative about his guy. No way, no how. That would negatively impact his player, his reputation with other scouts and potentially future recruiting prospects. You can be done with this if youd like but I asked you a simple question. Show me where Martin has saying being a good teammate is an important part of his game. You cant. I've looked. He says he wants to be on the team, he will play anywhere the team asks and he feels what he brings to the team will make them better. No where does anyone else factor into anything he says. Hes a competitor, that's neat but it can cut both ways. I work with lawyers to help them pick juries for murder trials. I get paid handsomely to do so because I'm damn good at what I do. This is what I see in Martin. This my read on Kjerstad. This is my read on the type of people they are. I could be wrong but I dont think I am.

Edited June 13, 2020 by Explosivo

[Can_of_corn]

If Bitsko was an actual 17 year old can't miss guy he wouldn't have lasted until Tampa's pick.

Good prospect sure, but hardly can't miss.  He pitched 33 innings in HS.