The Catching Situation

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, MarCakes21 said:

Which is done in turn by the catcher or someone in the dugout and the catcher relays.

Right.

But it isn't like the days of yore in which catchers were expected to know all the hitter tendencies and map things out.

These days a kid gets called up from the minors and the book on how to get him out is already in the hands of the ML club.

[LTO's]

2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Sure but an electronic strike zone was specially mentioned and that would only impact framing.

Right, which is why I said maybe at that point you could make that argument but right now it's a ludicrous statement. I also disagree that teams don't value it. It's just hard to find any good framers who can provide any value at the plate. The Dodgers are basically splitting the starting catching position between Will Smith and Austin Barnes despite the fact that Smith is becoming one of the best hitting catchers in baseball. The Twins are doing the same thing with Jeffers and Garver. 

[MarCakes21]

7 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Right.

But it isn't like the days of yore in which catchers were expected to know all the hitter tendencies and map things out.

These days a kid gets called up from the minors and the book on how to get him out is already in the hands of the ML club.

I'm simply stating that the old school catchers are what is visible to the eyes of the game.  The pitch framing and WAR/win probability/strikes gained is done by computer after the game.  The two players still exist.

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, LTO's said:

Right, which is why I said maybe at that point you could make that argument but right now it's a ludicrous statement. I also disagree that teams don't value it. It's just hard to find any good framers who can provide any value at the plate. The Dodgers are basically splitting the starting catching position between Will Smith and Austin Barnes despite the fact that Smith is becoming one of the best hitting catchers in baseball. The Twins are doing the same thing with Jeffers and Garver. 

But if it is as important as some groups make it out to be you wouldn't need to provide any value at the plate.  I don't feel like digging it up right now but I've seen estimates of a catcher's framing being worth four wins over 120 games in a given season.  Who needs a bat when you can do that?   Four wins for framing, one win for other defense, negative three wins with the bat and you are still an average ML player.

Once again I'm not saying it doesn't have value. 

[Frobby]

3 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

Lol...it really is a silly conversation.

Who cares who is the catcher right now?  People still don’t seem to understand the Orioles don’t want to win and don’t care about winning.  
 

The only thing that matters is that we should be set at C for a long time.

Silly fans that want to see their team win some games!

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Frobby said:

Silly fans that want to see their team win some games!

Shame ownership and management don't.

[LTO's]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

Shame ownership and management don't.

If you watched that Yankees series and thought there was anything ownership/management could've done this offseason to compete with that team then idk what to tell you.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, LTO's said:

If you watched that Yankees series and thought there was anything ownership/management could've done this offseason to compete with that team then idk what to tell you.

No one is suggesting that the O's should be a contender this season but it is very clear they built this team with no expectations to win games.

 

[DrungoHazewood]

16 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

No one is suggesting that the O's should be a contender this season but it is very clear they built this team with no expectations to win games. 

 

That's an exaggeration.  I'm sure Elias and Hyde expect to win at least fifty games.  That's over eight wins a month! The Patriots have never done that.

[LTO's]

5 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

No one is suggesting that the O's should be a contender this season

So what even is the complaint?

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, LTO's said:

So what even is the complaint?

My complaint?  About the catching?

I want either Sisco or Severino replaced with AR.

That's my complaint.

[Sports Guy]

1 hour ago, LTO's said:

How on earth is catcher defense overrated? It's the most important/demanding defensive position in baseball. There really isn't a close second. Perhaps if they eventually adopt an electronic strikezone you could make that argument, but even still it would be the most important defensive position. 

Why is it the most important?

Physically demanding, yes....But why is it the most important?

 

In a SSS last year, these were our 2 primary catchers and we saw an improvement in the staff, including the young arms.  If they are so bad and such a detriment to things, how could that have happened?  Was it only because it was 60 games?  Why have we seen improvement from some of the young arms if these guys aren't helping?  Why is it that Sisco caught so many of the young pitchers we see now in the majors and minors, who have made strides, and those pitchers have developed well if he is such a detriment?

CERA is a bogus stat....Players don't steal anymore and the pitch framing stats have a lot of noise in them.  Most teams call the pitches from the dugouts nowadays.  I am just not seeing the over importance of the defense behind the plate.  I know its a cliche and I agree that it used to be important when the game was played differently but I do not see it now.

 

Again, sure I would like better defense...always want to see better defense.  I just don't think C defense is hurting this team in the win column or in the development of the staff.  I don't buy that at all.

[Sports Guy]

37 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Silly fans that want to see their team win some games!

Silly fans not being able to understand where the team is right now despite the GM saying it.

[Philip]

37 minutes ago, LTO's said:

If you watched that Yankees series and thought there was anything ownership/management could've done this offseason to compete with that team then idk what to tell you.

Not putting Mountcastle in left field would’ve been a great first move.

[Sports Guy]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

I can think the Beatles were the best band in the world and still think they are overrated.

Saying you think catcher defense is overrated is not the same thing as saying catcher defense is unimportant.

 

I've said it before.  If framing made as big a difference as certain groups thinks it does, teams would pay for it.  They have the data, most of them aren't stupid. 

Such a simple concept to grasp yet here we are...