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The Tampa pitching as a model

wildcard

By wildcard
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Frobby
Frobby

I happen to have a pretty good list of their best draft picks, from another thread.   Top pitchers are (in WAR order going into 2021): Price, Shields, Hammel, Cobb, Hellickson, Snell, Wade Davis, McGe

Frobby
Frobby

I doubt Holt is the one who decides whether to employ an opener strategy.   There’s other things I might blame on him, but not this.  

RZNJ
RZNJ

You think things would be any different if Connor Greene, and most of the terrible relievers we had this year, were pitching inning 1 instead of inning 6 and 7?    An opener is only as good as the pit

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Frobby

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I don't agree that the opener is a gimmick but yea, the rest is spot on.

Teams are more likely to score in the first inning, it makes sense to try and suppress that tendency.

I think the main purpose of an opener is not to suppress runs in the first inning.   It’s to allow the second pitcher to go 5-6 innings without seeing the top part of the lineup an extra time.   If the second pitcher has to face anybody a third time, it’s the guys in the lower part of the order, not the top.   

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RZNJ

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12 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I don't agree that the opener is a gimmick but yea, the rest is spot on.

Teams are more likely to score in the first inning, it makes sense to try and suppress that tendency.

Tampa Bay, with one of the best team ERA's in baseball should probably have one of the best 1st inning run preventions, if not the #1 in baseball then, right?   

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Can_of_corn

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1 minute ago, Frobby said:

I think the main purpose of an opener is not to suppress runs in the first inning.   It’s to allow the second pitcher to go 5-6 innings without seeing the top part of the lineup an extra time.   If the second pitcher has to face anybody a third time, it’s the guys in the lower part of the order, not the top.   

/shrug.

Number of benefits.  It also theoretically allows a team to mess with the other team's platoons.

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Can_of_corn

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2 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Tampa Bay, with one of the best team ERA's in baseball should probably have one of the best 1st inning run preventions, if not the #1 in baseball then, right?   

Not really.

How often did they use openers?

What's the sample size?

Making the "right move" often doesn't work in baseball.

But you know this.

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Jagwar

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32 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

You might want to show us all of the great pitchers they drafted.

I'm afraid I'm not completely informed on this. Are you saying that Tampa has had enviable pitching for the last decade or so but not because they drafted any of those pitchers?

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RZNJ

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1 minute ago, Jagwar said:

I'm afraid I'm not completely informed on this. Are you saying that Tampa has had enviable pitching for the last decade or so but not because they drafted any of those pitchers?

I'm saying that they have probably drafted well overall but you made the remark about how we should draft pitching like Tampa Bay has so I thought you might want to share which pitchers they've drafted.    I know they have done a great job of trading for other teams young minor league pitching but you usually need something to get something.   I know they drafted Hellickson and Price and another lefty who never turned out that great.  Did they draft Snell?   My gut feeling is that you'll find out that they've done a great job of drafting, signing international talent, and making great trades.

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Frobby

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47 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

You might want to show us all of the great pitchers they drafted.

I happen to have a pretty good list of their best draft picks, from another thread.   Top pitchers are (in WAR order going into 2021): Price, Shields, Hammel, Cobb, Hellickson, Snell, Wade Davis, McGee, Moore.

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RZNJ

Posted
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1 minute ago, Frobby said:

I happen to have a pretty good list of their best draft picks, from another thread.   Top pitchers are (in WAR order going into 2021): Price, Shields, Hammel, Cobb, Hellickson, Snell, Wade Davis, McGee, Moore.

I forgot Moore's name.   He never quite lived up to the advanced billing.    Nice job!

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Jagwar

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18 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

I'm saying that they have probably drafted well overall but you made the remark about how we should draft pitching like Tampa Bay has so I thought you might want to share which pitchers they've drafted.    I know they have done a great job of trading for other teams young minor league pitching but you usually need something to get something.   I know they drafted Hellickson and Price and another lefty who never turned out that great.  Did they draft Snell?   My gut feeling is that you'll find out that they've done a great job of drafting, signing international talent, and making great trades.

Well then.. I said the first way to emulate their model was to draft pitching. Guess we're on the same page. 

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Jagwar

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4 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I happen to have a pretty good list of their best draft picks, from another thread.   Top pitchers are (in WAR order going into 2021): Price, Shields, Hammel, Cobb, Hellickson, Snell, Wade Davis, McGee, Moore.

Yeah... I'd say that I would love the O's to have a list of drafted pitchers like that. Have the O's even drafted that many successful pitchers over the last 30 years?

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RZNJ

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Just now, Jagwar said:

Well then.. I said the first way to emulate their model was to draft pitching. Guess we're on the same page. 

I guess so but I have no problem with the way they've drafted so far.  They've also acquired pitching through trades.   To me, it doesn't matter how they get it as long as they get it.

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Frobby

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2 minutes ago, Jagwar said:

Yeah... I'd say that I would love the O's to have a list of drafted pitchers like that. Have the O's even drafted that many successful pitchers over the last 30 years?

Don’t know about 1991-2000, but here’s the 21st Century: Arrieta, Britton, Hader, Davies, Gausman, Bundy, Jim Johnson, Givens, Means.   

Both lists I gave are all the pitchers who have exceeded 5 rWAR.   Both teams have drafted nine pitchers exceeding that threshold.   But most of our successful draftees had their success elsewhere.
 

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JR Oriole Major Leaguer

JR Oriole

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As good as the “Tampa model” may be, they are about to be ousted by a Sox team that is going to destiny its way to its 5th title in 18 years.  Until they win an actual championship, these good regular seasons are no different than what Oakland does almost every year.  

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Ripken

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19 minutes ago, JR Oriole said:

As good as the “Tampa model” may be, they are about to be ousted by a Sox team that is going to destiny its way to its 5th title in 18 years.  Until they win an actual championship, these good regular seasons are no different than what Oakland does almost every year.  

There's a reason championship teams usual have a few stars on them.

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