The Tampa pitching as a model

[Just Regular]

They put Yarbrough on the sidelines like Odorizzi/Keuchel, and maybe ended up missing him.   It was a fun palate-cleanser seeing a 13-inning game without ghost runners.

I think probably they didn't expect the Red Sox to hit their relievers as much as they did.

https://www.draysbay.com/2021/10/7/22714647/rays-release-roster-for-2021-alds

For sure 5-game format teams are tempted to stack one inning dominators over 162-tools, its all risk/reward.   I guess Fleming the LOOGY and you pick Wacha over Yarb for bulk with keeping lefties away from Fenway, etc.

[JR Oriole]

I know that the Red Sox starting lineup has at least six guys (Schwarber, Bogaerts, Devers, Martinez, Hernandez, and Vasquez) who have held up the trophy.  I don’t think the Rays have any.  How much that matters is up for debate.  I personally think it matters a lot.  

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, Tony-OH said:

It would, and admittedly, I'm just going off what I see of late vs doing any kind of study. Obviously we have Orioles history of guys like Tito Landrum, Rick Dempsey and Delmond Yong coming up big in key situations in the World Series or playoffs and none of them were big stars.

I don't know, but what I do know is that teams like the A's and Tampa, who have done great things to change how to compete with a smaller payroll, have also not broken through yet with a World Series victory.

This is a fun list I found of best rookie postseason performances.   Mike Boddicker comes in at no. 3 for his performance in the 1983 postseason.   
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mlb.com/amp/news/top-all-time-rookie-postseason-performances.html

I can think of lots of young players who were largely unknown (at least, by the general public) before the World Series but did amazing things there and then went on to become big stars.   

I was always amazed that those Oakland teams with Hudson/Mulder/Zito didn’t do better in the postseason.   Same for Atlanta with Maddux/Glavine/Smoltz.   
 

[SteveA]

6 hours ago, Frobby said:

I’m in the camp that the results of short series are pretty random and you shouldn’t draw broad conclusions from them.   Tampa won 9 more games than Boston this year and went 11-8 against them during the regular season.   They were the better team, but the better team doesn’t always win a short series.   The Rays have been to the WS twice in 14 years while being in the playoffs 7 times (4 times as a division winner, 3 times as a wild card).   That’s a decent postseason track record.

Yeah, give me that for the Orioles and I pinky swear that I won't start complaining about us "being another Oakland or Tampa Bay" and not being able to win the World Series, for at least a decade.  I'll enjoy a heck of a lot of regular season pennant races and 90-100 win seasons and endure a bit of postseason heartbreak.

[wildcard]

1 minute ago, SteveA said:

Yeah, give me that for the Orioles and I pinky swear that I won't start complaining about us "being another Oakland or Tampa Bay" and not being able to win the World Series, for at least a decade.  I'll enjoy a heck of a lot of regular season pennant races and 90-100 win seasons and endure a bit of postseason heartbreak.

Not me.  I would be saying add a few stars and let's win a few WS!

[Sports Guy]

9 hours ago, Frobby said:

I’m in the camp that the results of short series are pretty random and you shouldn’t draw broad conclusions from them.   Tampa won 9 more games than Boston this year and went 11-8 against them during the regular season.   They were the better team, but the better team doesn’t always win a short series.   The Rays have been to the WS twice in 14 years while being in the playoffs 7 times (4 times as a division winner, 3 times as a wild card).   That’s a decent postseason track record.

There is definitely a lot of randomness and luck.

Tony mentioned Oakland but Oakland always seemed to have key injuries, particularly to their pitching, in the postseason.

But I definitely do think a margin for error goes with some of these teams.

When you look at the Tampa, that lineup isn’t that imposing after a few guys and if those guys aren’t hitting, not much is going to happen.

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, Sports Guy said:

There is definitely a lot of randomness and luck.

Tony mentioned Oakland but Oakland always seemed to have key injuries, particularly to their pitching, in the postseason.

But I definitely do think a margin for error goes with some of these teams.

When you look at the Tampa, that lineup isn’t that imposing after a few guys and if those guys aren’t hitting, not much is going to happen.

They finished second in runs scored.

[Sports Guy]

10 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

They finished second in runs scored.

I’m aware…I still stand by what I said.

Zunino is a good example. He hits a lot of homers but is a relatively easy out.

 

[Frobby]

38 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

There is definitely a lot of randomness and luck.

Tony mentioned Oakland but Oakland always seemed to have key injuries, particularly to their pitching, in the postseason.

But I definitely do think a margin for error goes with some of these teams.

When you look at the Tampa, that lineup isn’t that imposing after a few guys and if those guys aren’t hitting, not much is going to happen.

Here’s the OPS+ of the top 10 hitters (by PA) of Boston and Tampa:

B: 132, 127, 126, 112, 107, 106, 105, 102, 75, 52.

T: 142, 138, 131, 129, 117, 116, 112, 110, 104, 98.

To me, there’s plenty of depth in Tampa’s lineup.   And they scored plenty of runs in this series    Their pitching let them down.

 

[Sports Guy]

45 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Here’s the OPS+ of the top 10 hitters (by PA) of Boston and Tampa:

B: 132, 127, 126, 112, 107, 106, 105, 102, 75, 52.

T: 142, 138, 131, 129, 117, 116, 112, 110, 104, 98.

To me, there’s plenty of depth in Tampa’s lineup.   And they scored plenty of runs in this series    Their pitching let them down.

 

There is depth..but there isn’t a lot scary.

A lot of guys with holes in their swings.  A lot of power and some who will take a walk but not much in between.  
 

I do agree that ultimately the pitching let them down but that’s kind of my point.  They need a lot of everything to be really great to win because of the lack of elite guys.

Look at Houston..they have and have had elite guys all over the place.  They have been to 5 straight ALCS, multiple WS and they have the one title.  Tampa has actually probably been more balanced top to bottom but the elite guys on Houston gives them a higher margin for error in a short series.

[JR Oriole]

Tampa is clearly a great regular season team. But if guys like Lowe, Zunino, and Cruz are going to be that terrible in the postseason, they are going to lose.  

Houston is scary good.  Their offense is loaded with big time talent.  Hopefully they get rid of the Sox.  

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, JR Oriole said:

Tampa is clearly a great regular season team. But if guys like Lowe, Zunino, and Cruz are going to be that terrible in the postseason, they are going to lose.  

Houston is scary good.  Their offense is loaded with big time talent.  Hopefully they get rid of the Sox.  

They eliminated the Sox today, 10-1.

[JR Oriole]

Ha!  I meant the other Sox.  The annoying red ones.

[Camden_yardbird]

On 10/11/2021 at 2:59 PM, Can_of_corn said:

I have zero idea why the Orioles haven't tried that, or anything innovative really, in this span of non-competitiveness.

I will keep saying it until people believe it.  Elias isn't it.  He doesn't have the ingenuity of Tampa's leadership, he doesn't try new things, he doesn't have an eye for underappreciated talent.

People keep saying "lets follow the Tampa model!" But you have to have the Tampa intelligence.  You have to be able to try new things and innovate.  You have to be able to find underappreciated talent.

Elias can build a farm system, and people think he's some savior.  I dont see half of what he needs to be doing to get it done.

Yes, the Orioles should be using the Tampa pitching model.

Why aren't they?

 

[sportsfan8703]

Isn’t Tampa kind of using Showalter/DDs model of building their pitching staff from the end of the game to the beginning?  Also, look at they have deep depth. That sounds familiar.