Shortstops, shortstops everywhere

[RZNJ]

12 minutes ago, wildcard said:

I think Ortiz is considered the best defensive SS in the O's minors but not in the organization.   I have not heard anyone say Ortiz is a better defensive SS than Mateo.

I usually don't go too crazy over defense at the ML level.  Mateo is playing SS about as well as it can be played.   

[wildcard]

3 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

I usually don't go too crazy over defense at the ML level.  Mateo is playing SS about as well as it can be played.   

Just amazing that Elias got Mateo on waivers.

[btdart20]

How did we go from 0 to what seems like a legit prospect at every level?  Obviously, there was a degree of making SS a priority in the drafts.   But it wasn't until this year where we took an SS as our first pick in the draft.  Prioritizing it (Prieto/Bencosme/Holliday)?  Better scouting (Westburg/Ortiz)?  Skilled drafting (Gunnar/Young)?  Just lucked into it a bit?  

Maybe this should be another thread, but I guess where I'm going with this is:  Is there anything we've learned from the success of building the SS depth that can be applied to building org depth at SP?  I get the logic is that pitchers are too risky early in drafts, so they just don't go that way.  But will roll the dice on overslots or draft BP arms in middle/late rounds to maximize draft budget on higher quality talent.  Then as position player depth builds value, we trade for SPs.  And maybe that's just it...  But it would be awesome to have some type of "copy/paste" with what we've done for the SS and OF depth!

[jabba72]

3 minutes ago, btdart20 said:

How did we go from 0 to what seems like a legit prospect at every level?  Obviously, there was a degree of making SS a priority in the drafts.   But it wasn't until this year where we took an SS as our first pick in the draft.  Prioritizing it (Prieto/Bencosme/Holliday)?  Better scouting (Westburg/Ortiz)?  Skilled drafting (Gunnar/Young)?  Just lucked into it a bit?  

Maybe this should be another thread, but I guess where I'm going with this is:  Is there anything we've learned from the success of building the SS depth that can be applied to building org depth at SP?  I get the logic is that pitchers are too risky early in drafts, so they just don't go that way.  But will roll the dice on overslots or draft BP arms in middle/late rounds to maximize draft budget on higher quality talent.  Then as position player depth builds value, we trade for SPs.  And maybe that's just it...  But it would be awesome to have some type of "copy/paste" with what we've done for the SS and OF depth!

Elias just traded for 6 arms at the deadline. And he said many of the draft picks they want to try and keep them at SP, so he is clearly recognizing the need for more starters. 

[RZNJ]

7 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Just amazing that Elias got Mateo on waivers.

Kind of but a lot of these guys, even the toolsy ones, never amount to anything.   His defense is way better than advertised at the time of the trade and he didn't look special last year.   This year he looks special.    You can see the tools on offense too but I think the aggressive approach is going to keep the ceiling a little lower there.   Still, I do believe he's got 20 homer potential along with 30-40 stolen bases.   If he hits .250, he's a star.

[wildcard]

8 minutes ago, btdart20 said:

How did we go from 0 to what seems like a legit prospect at every level?  Obviously, there was a degree of making SS a priority in the drafts.   But it wasn't until this year where we took an SS as our first pick in the draft.  Prioritizing it (Prieto/Bencosme/Holliday)?  Better scouting (Westburg/Ortiz)?  Skilled drafting (Gunnar/Young)?  Just lucked into it a bit?  

Maybe this should be another thread, but I guess where I'm going with this is:  Is there anything we've learned from the success of building the SS depth that can be applied to building org depth at SP?  I get the logic is that pitchers are too risky early in drafts, so they just don't go that way.  But will roll the dice on overslots or draft BP arms in middle/late rounds to maximize draft budget on higher quality talent.  Then as position player depth builds value, we trade for SPs.  And maybe that's just it...  But it would be awesome to have some type of "copy/paste" with what we've done for the SS and OF depth!

When the O's lead all of baseball in wins in a few years they can draft a pitcher with the 30th pick.

[btdart20]

8 minutes ago, jabba72 said:

Elias just traded for 6 arms at the deadline. And he said many of the draft picks they want to try and keep them at SP, so he is clearly recognizing the need for more starters. 

Agreed.  And I'm not questioning that.  It's more about getting the SPs in the pipeline earlier.  Even if it's not in the first round or two of the amateur draft.  Some of our SS talent is international too.  

Elias/Sig obviously have some mojo for SS and OF.  A key scout?  An analytic tool?  A profile?  IF we can somehow do that same thing for SPs, then...

[jabba72]

The SS depth is ridiculous with Holliday and Carter Young signed for $1.3m, supposedly a glove first guy.

[wildcard]

47 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Kind of but a lot of these guys, even the toolsy ones, never amount to anything.   His defense is way better than advertised at the time of the trade and he didn't look special last year.   This year he looks special.    You can see the tools on offense too but I think the aggressive approach is going to keep the ceiling a little lower there.   Still, I do believe he's got 20 homer potential along with 30-40 stolen bases.   If he hits .250, he's a star.

Nice assessment except for saying  he did't look special last year.  I thought he did.  The arm, the range.  We just didn't get to see it a SS that much.

[owknows]

1 hour ago, jerios55 said:

Better than our previous "field a DH/1B at every position" approach.

You win the day.

[Fiver6565]

1 hour ago, RZNJ said:

Kind of but a lot of these guys, even the toolsy ones, never amount to anything.   His defense is way better than advertised at the time of the trade and he didn't look special last year.   This year he looks special.    You can see the tools on offense too but I think the aggressive approach is going to keep the ceiling a little lower there.   Still, I do believe he's got 20 homer potential along with 30-40 stolen bases.   If he hits .250, he's a star.

If he does that (and I also believe he can), he's basically JJ Hardy but fast.  That's pretty freaking good.

[RZNJ]

1 minute ago, Fiver6565 said:

If he does that (and I also believe he can), he's basically JJ Hardy but fast.  That's pretty freaking good.

J.J. Hardy with speed.  Haha.   I like that.

[Sports Guy]

1 hour ago, wildcard said:

Just amazing that Elias got Mateo on waivers.

Why is it amazing?  He provides very little in a ton of MiL time And showed nothing in the majors.

The history of baseball is littered with failed prospects with a lot of tools.  

[tntoriole]

1 hour ago, RZNJ said:

I usually don't go too crazy over defense at the ML level.  Mateo is playing SS about as well as it can be played.   

When you get Jim Palmer oooohing and laughing out loud as often as he has with Mateo, you have a good defensive player.

Jim gauges against the best Oriole defensive SS ever, Mark Belanger  

[foxfield]

56 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Nice assessment except for saying  he did't look special last year.  I thought he did.  The arm, the range.  We just didn't get to see it a SS that much.

I agree with this.  I saw him play in person last year.  And saw him make two errors.  But on both of the balls, my son and I both thought the Orioles didn't have another SS who would have even gotten to the balls in the first place.  The tools shined...and he has definitely taken a step forward.  Let's see the second half of the season.  In the meantime, he has certainly earned the spot for now.

36 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Why is it amazing?  He provides very little in a ton of MiL time And showed nothing in the majors.

The history of baseball is littered with failed prospects with a lot of tools.  

He provided very little in his Minor League time, except that he did show those same tools that he is using more effectively this season.  Will that continue.  I don't know. But if it does, it does go down as an extraordinary waiver wire claim.  And if it does not, it still provides a ton of help and has made it easier for our pitchers to exceed expectations too.  If the second half of the season looks more like his minor league time...then he still provided great value for the rebuild.   And I for one am thrilled to raise the bar for anyone coming to get that position.

Edited August 4, 2022 by foxfield