Anyone else seen enough of Odor?

[owknows]

4 hours ago, Jammer7 said:

Vavra is not close to the defender that Odor is.....

I see no evidence to support this conclusion.

[Roll Tide]

3 hours ago, owknows said:

I see no evidence to support this conclusion.

Yeah …. I don’t get this thought process. I just think Hyde favors Odor.

[Jammer7]

8 hours ago, forphase1 said:

And in at least 1 of those walk off wins, we were only losing due to his bonehead plays in the field and/or basepaths.  Can't just look at the few times when he has had some big hits without also looking at the times he cost us games.  Heck you could argue today since the came to bat twice, both times needing a big hit as, per usual, he failed.  Does the good offset the bad?  I certainly think not.

And sure players are quoted as saying what a difference they are making.  What else are they going to say 'yeah, that .206 average really gives us a lift in the #7 spot!'?  Often when you hear some stuff about leadership and preparing us better it's often to make an otherwise failing player seem like they are actually pulling their weight.  Again, do you expect a player to tell a reporter about what a black hole that bat is in the lineup, and how they shouldn't even be in the league, even if that's the facts and how the players really feel?  I don't know any ex MLB players, but I do know a few ex NFL players from following my local university, and I know for a fact that in many cases what athletes say in interviews are not even close to how they really think or feel.  I doubt MLB players/coaches are any different.

For the record I'm ok with Chirinos, though again I'd like a better bat.  But I certainly like him more than Severino, and think he's a breath of fresh air at the backstop position.  He has a spot on the team, though if we had another good defense catcher with a hotter bat, then perhaps my tune would be different.  But Odor was a poor signing, it's a bad use of a valuable roster spot, and at MOST he should be a role bit player, and not getting nearly as much playing time as he is.  

Both Odor and Chrinos have been on teams that sucked, both at the same time if I recall.  How can that be if they are so valuable in the clubhouse?!?!?!  And folks claimed we were going to crater after losing the 'heart' of the team in Trey and the closer of our team in Lopez, yet here we still are, right in the thick of things.  Clubhouse presence, the impact folks have on their teammates, etc is WAY overvalued around here at times.  Cutting Odor would only help this team, not send us crashing to the ground because Mateo and Santander are missing their BFF.

You can claim we have been much better because of them.  I claim we are being much better in SPITE of them, and would likely be even better if they had been replaced with more capable players.  While I can't prove you wrong, you certainly can't prove me wrong either.  Likely we will just have to agree to disagree on the real impact, positively or negatively, that having Odor on the team has had.  

Good morning. Every player makes errors. Odor is certainly a flawed player, perhaps the most flawed player on the roster. I’m not arguing he is anything else. (Chirinos too.) But he also grinds, and that is something a lot of the younger guys needed to see. There is value there. Perhaps that value has come and gone. I do not actually disagree. I am simply saying he has had an impact, even if the fans don’t see it. 

Players could say nothing about them, but they make T shirts about Chirinos’ daily sayings and celebrate his impact. Hyde has gone out of his way to mention both of them, even when unsolicited. There is a human factor in every clubhouse. I do not know what would happen if Odor was DFA’d. That may be coming soon. All I said was that if the team faded around the time he was let go, I would hate to be the one that made that decision. Especially considering they already moved Trey and Lopez. 

Hyde has those guys on the roster for a reason. He believes in what they bring. Actual baseball guys understand the value they bring. Fans, obviously some don’t think so much of it. When all you see is numbers, it’s hard to see what they bring. Look at the impact they have had on others, however that’s tough to prove beyond listening to whom the player credits. 

The only fact in the entire discussion is that we have a winning record with them so far, which has much exceeded most expectations and the record before they came. This team has been gritty and fun to watch. Whether or not they are still of value, IDK.

It may be time for Odor to move on. Perhaps the talk they had with him last week was an honest discussion where they explained things to him. Maybe it is best for the growth of the team as a whole. 

[Jammer7]

5 hours ago, owknows said:

I see no evidence to support this conclusion.

Odor turns a double play much better than most MLB 2B, IMO. Odor’s arm is a grade stronger than Vavra. Odor throws from various angles better as well. That is what I was talking about. Just my observation.

In fairness, I have not seen a lot of Vavra at 2B, because Hyde obviously feels better with Odor there. So all I have to go on is limited video. Well, maybe the fact that the organization has played him in the OF so much is a clue as well.

Lately, I have been paying a lot more attention to the positioning and the shifts they have on Odor. Along with the impact of what throws he has to make. It is very difficult for the average 2B to play in nearly medium deep RF and throw someone out at 1B. He often makes that play, and I think that the throw he made the other night was of this position. His throw was low, but Mountcastle should have had that pick. Mounty’s footwork was terrible there. I  sure he would say so himself.

That position flexibility at 2B is a weakness for Vavra. I sure do like his bat and they have to find a way to get him in there. Maybe 2B is it, and they DFA Odor soon. IDK. They will have change the way they shift though. 

[ScGO's]

1 hour ago, Jammer7 said:

Good morning. Every player makes errors. Odor is certainly a flawed player, perhaps the most flawed player on the roster. I’m not arguing he is anything else. (Chirinos too.) But he also grinds, and that is something a lot of the younger guys needed to see. There is value there. Perhaps that value has come and gone. I do not actually disagree. I am simply saying he has had an impact, even if the fans don’t see it. 

 

Brett Phillips was a grinder too.  I'd DFA Nevin first, but its time to send Odor to the bench and try him in a late innings PH role and an occasional match up start. If he can't thrive in that role for a couple weeks, then he has to be DFA'd.  I appreciate him, but we also gotta put out our best roster forward now if the O's want to keep up.  If he can thrive in that PH role, then he's easier to stomach especially when the rosters do expand.

If we want to push for the WC we probably need to go most nights with this soon and especially when rosters expand

C- Adley

1B- Mountcastle

2B - Urias

3B- Henderson

SS - Mateo

LF - Hays

CF- Mullins

RF- Stowers

DH- Santander

Bench- Vavra, McKenna, Chirinos, Odor (if he's cut, bring up another pitcher or another AAA bat that's hot, Westburg?)

Pitching is going to be the main factor.  The above list is 14 players, so 14 pitchers for when rosters expand. Moves I'd like to see, Hall to BP to hopefully thrive in a reliever role. Would also like to see one or both of Grayson and Wells get healthy and give us 4-5+ Inning starts a couple times a week by September. That may not happen, but if it did 14 pitchers would be:

Lyles, Wells, Bradish, Watkins, Kremer, Voth, GrayRod, Hall, Perez, Bautista, Krehbiel, Tate, Akin, Baker (maybe drop a starter for Vespi if everyone is truly healthy)

[LA2]

1 hour ago, ScGO's said:

If he can thrive in that PH role, then he's easier to stomach especially when the rosters do expand.

Although this season, Odor has hit a tiny bit better as a sub (26 PAs) than as a starter, career-wise (70 PAs, incl. this year) he's much, much better when starting (.718 vs. .479 OPS!). Indeed, the fact before this season he had only 44 career PAs as a non-starter tells me that his managers knew he's not a good hitter off the bench or didn't value him as a late-inning defensive substitute.

[Morgan423]

It feels to me that while the front office expected this to be an improvement season that might signal that we were approaching our transition time, they probably didn't expect the team to actually be playoff competitive this year. 

So signing a cheap, one-year replacement-levelish stopgap for the vacancy at second was seen as an appropriate move to make during the last off-season... but now that we are in the wild card hunt, you've got to improve and do better, especially if you can do so at no harm to our team's future strength and reserves.  And I think we have several options in that regard that are all better than Odor.  It's past time to make this change. 

[owknows]

9 hours ago, Jammer7 said:

Odor turns a double play much better than most MLB 2B, IMO. Odor’s arm is a grade stronger than Vavra. Odor throws from various angles better as well. That is what I was talking about. Just my observation.

 

Statistically, their performance is not significantly different (with Vavra having the slightly better fielding PCT last I checked). They are similar, even with respect to double-play rates. Which would tend to discredit this line of thinking (with regard to Vavra's arm, or at least as it effects his DP turning.)

I'm inclined to think (as was suggested by Roll Tide.. that it is simply Hyde's preference, and that Vavra's defense has gotten a bum rap due to speculation over what possible reason Hyde would have to continue to play Odor.... And if so... it's kind of a pity... as these kinds of things become lore, whether they have any actual foundation or not.

 

[Jammer7]

2 hours ago, owknows said:

Statistically, their performance is not significantly different (with Vavra having the slightly better fielding PCT last I checked). They are similar, even with respect to double-play rates. Which would tend to discredit this line of thinking (with regard to Vavra's arm, or at least as it effects his DP turning.)

I'm inclined to think (as was suggested by Roll Tide.. that it is simply Hyde's preference, and that Vavra's defense has gotten a bum rap due to speculation over what possible reason Hyde would have to continue to play Odor.... And if so... it's kind of a pity... as these kinds of things become lore, whether they have any actual foundation or not.

 

Skill-wise, I don’t think it’s even close in any defensive aspect from what I have seen. His arm is short, but maybe passable at 2B. I do not love the footwork, and the hands are average at best. He only played 24 games in AAA at 2B, about half of his games there. I hope we’re not comparing fielding %, though they are both at .971. Not a great stat to compare them. 

Hyde wants to win. If he thought Vavra is a better 2B overall, he would be playing him there. Vavra also has to prove he can stay healthy for the full year. He last played a full season in low A ball in 2019.

Maybe Hyde deserves the benefit of the doubt about that decision. Maybe they move Odor out. Richie Martin is up, and Arauz is coming back soon. Honestly, not sure why Nevin is still on the roster. I am not sure Odor will stay around as a bench role. 

The Orioles ask their 2B to do a lot in their shifts. I don’t think Vavra is capable of doing what they have asked Odor to do at the same level. Odor brings a lot of energy each day, while Vavra is more reserved. If Odor is DFA’d, it might be Urias who moves over, but I like him better at 3B. Urias does not bring the same ability, though his arm is solid above average.

In a SSS of 48 at bats, I like Vavra’s short swing.  I can’t say he shows much power, but gap to gap will work for now. For me, he has a lot to prove as an infielder. 

[LA2]

When is Vavra due back? Must be depressing to Richie Martin that he hasn't had an at-bat since July 3rd. But he did have that two-triples game: how many players with long careers ever manage to do that?

[owknows]

10 hours ago, Jammer7 said:

Skill-wise, I don’t think it’s even close in any defensive aspect from what I have seen.

Yes. I know. You said that earlier.

My point was that the statistical evidence seems to call what you think you've seen into question.

[baltfan]

11 hours ago, Jammer7 said:

Skill-wise, I don’t think it’s even close in any defensive aspect from what I have seen. His arm is short, but maybe passable at 2B. I do not love the footwork, and the hands are average at best. He only played 24 games in AAA at 2B, about half of his games there. I hope we’re not comparing fielding %, though they are both at .971. Not a great stat to compare them. 

Hyde wants to win. If he thought Vavra is a better 2B overall, he would be playing him there. Vavra also has to prove he can stay healthy for the full year. He last played a full season in low A ball in 2019.

Maybe Hyde deserves the benefit of the doubt about that decision. Maybe they move Odor out. Richie Martin is up, and Arauz is coming back soon. Honestly, not sure why Nevin is still on the roster. I am not sure Odor will stay around as a bench role. 

The Orioles ask their 2B to do a lot in their shifts. I don’t think Vavra is capable of doing what they have asked Odor to do at the same level. Odor brings a lot of energy each day, while Vavra is more reserved. If Odor is DFA’d, it might be Urias who moves over, but I like him better at 3B. Urias does not bring the same ability, though his arm is solid above average.

In a SSS of 48 at bats, I like Vavra’s short swing.  I can’t say he shows much power, but gap to gap will work for now. For me, he has a lot to prove as an infielder. 

People really need to chill on this being some sort of Hyde thing.  Elias runs this team.  If they thought Vavra was the better option at second, that is where he would be playing.  While people on this board might look at Odor and think he isn't any better than Vavra in the field, you can bet that this team which is all about metrics has a metric backing up that assertion.

[LA2]

4 minutes ago, baltfan said:

People really need to chill on this being some sort of Hyde thing.  Elias runs this team.  If they thought Vavra was the better option at second, that is where he would be playing.  While people on this board might look at Odor and think he isn't any better than Vavra in the field, you can bet that this team which is all about metrics has a metric backing up that assertion.

Had a fine game both offensively and defensively last night.

[jabba72]

1 hour ago, baltfan said:

People really need to chill on this being some sort of Hyde thing.  Elias runs this team.  If they thought Vavra was the better option at second, that is where he would be playing.  While people on this board might look at Odor and think he isn't any better than Vavra in the field, you can bet that this team which is all about metrics has a metric backing up that assertion.

I think its 50-50, Hyde clearly prefers Odor and Elias might be allowing him to make the call. Elias did call up Vavra so there may have been a hint there like "heres another option for 2B".

[owknows]

 

Field: Solid defender that profiles best long term at 2B. Average range that plays up because of instincts and a quick first step. Reads angles well and makes more difficult plays than he should. Good footwork when he gets to the ball; exceptionally soft hands; quick on the pivot; turns an excellent on the double play. Adequate enough to play SS in a pinch but 2B is his primary future. Grade: 55

https://www.prospectslive.com/scoutingreports/terrin-vavra

Defensively, Vavra profiles best at second but also showed well in center field in a small sample last summer.

Scouting grades: Hit: 55 | Power: 45 | Run: 50 | Arm: 50 | Field: 50 | Overall: 45

https://www.mlb.com/prospects/orioles/terrin-vavra-679631

If you look at the historical scouting reports on Vavra, they're all pretty positive defensively. Particularly at 2B. But his slow-roll promotion to the majors coupled with Hyde's reluctance to play him at 2B, started some (in my opinion unfounded) speculation regarding him being a poor defensive player. Which there is ZERO historical evidence to support. And which is unfair to the player.

This kind of speculation eventually becomes self-reinforcing lore as it is passed back and forth on message boards. And it is based solely on Hyde's reluctance to play him at 2B.

Hyde's reluctance to play him at 2B seems as much about Hyde's preference for not upsetting the chemistry of a winning formula, where Odor was recognized as an important source of heart... and a bit of a firebrand. That's been Odor's game from the outset. He has never been particularly good defensively, and he has been particularly awful with the bat this season, (although in fairness to Odor, he occasionally comes up clutch).

Arguments can be made for and against Odor's continued appearance in the lineup at 2B... but objectively, Vavra is at least as good a defender. Arguably better.