Should Santander be traded this offseason?

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, Moose Milligan said:

Exactly. I think Cowser steps up into an outfield spot next year at some point.  I can see trading Mullins IF THE RETURNS ARE GOOD AND MAKE SENSE but I also wouldn't mind holding onto him.  Mullins and Cowser are a good combination, the other spot can be addressed in free agency or via trade.  

But I agree, Santander, despite having a good arm shouldn't be out there and Hays is just terribly disappointing with the bat to the point that I don't think there's anything he can do on defense to make up for it.  Mountcastle would be terrible out there and it doesn't really matter because he's become adequate in the field at first base.

 

I actually meant to say fading defense with Hays but yea the offense is an issue too.

[Sports Guy]

4 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Exactly. I think Cowser steps up into an outfield spot next year at some point.  I can see trading Mullins IF THE RETURNS ARE GOOD AND MAKE SENSE but I also wouldn't mind holding onto him.  Mullins and Cowser are a good combination, the other spot can be addressed in free agency or via trade.  

But I agree, Santander, despite having a good arm shouldn't be out there and Hays is just terribly disappointing with the bat to the point that I don't think there's anything he can do on defense to make up for it.  Mountcastle would be terrible out there and it doesn't really matter because he's become adequate in the field at first base.

 

I don’t mind holding onto Mullins either but I worry about where he is in 2024 and beyond.  
 

It’s the combo of that and what I believe he can bring back in return.  That’s my reasoning for him.

 

[sportsfan8703]

As much as I hate to say it, we should sell high on Santander.  It's risky though... If Stowers doesn't pan out, Hays doesn't bounce back, Vavra doesn't pan out, and Cowser struggles, we would then likely miss the playoffs.  

[Pickles]

26 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Not for me!  Again, we should trade 2/3s of our starting outfield if it makes sense and the returns are good.

Thanks for playing.

If we're playing a game, you've clearly lost.

If the position is we should trade two, then that means you trade two and take what you can get for them.  You have made yourself a motivated seller.  Motivated sellers do not extract full value of whatever they're selling.

Very, very simple concept.

[Moose Milligan]

17 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I actually meant to say fading defense with Hays but yea the offense is an issue too.

He's just fading all around, unfortunately.  

 

2 minutes ago, Pickles said:

If we're playing a game, you've clearly lost.

If the position is we should trade two, then that means you trade two and take what you can get for them.  You have made yourself a motivated seller.  Motivated sellers do not extract full value of whatever they're selling.

Very, very simple concept.

Nope, first one to post this is the winner:

 

 

[beantownrefugee]

I don't favor trading Santander.  Others have put the stat-line improvements earlier in the thread.  In 2023, I'd roll with Santander, Mountcastle and Adley rotating the DH for the most part.  Santander as DH more than the other two.  I see Hays as a stop-gap until Cowser is ready.  I agree with an earlier comment, Hays would at best net a pair of DSL prospects at this point.  Stowers is TBD, but he should be in the mix to start a good chunk of the first half of the year, see what he's got.

As for Elias' statement that the Orioles plan to spend (like many, I am skeptical), I'm expecting that would include paying Mullins and Santander for their arb-year increases. But primarily as a catalyst for acquiring veteran / pricy starting pitching via trades.  Similar to how Houston operated when the time was right.  For the players involved, I'd prefer to trade from the farm system, vs. Santander. 

[Guest]

Hays is what he is now, there are no more questions marks. Hays is a very average player who needed to show something this year and he just hasn't other than a two week stretch in June. While he passes the eye test with speed and arm strength his defensive metrics aren't very impressive. He has a track record of not staying healthy and has a poor approach at the plate. He's better than McKenna but with arbitration kicking in 2023 I'm not sure how much they want to spend on a fourth outfielder with Cowser rapidly approaching. I put a premium on Mullins defense in CF so I'd be hesitant to move Cedric. 

Its going to be a very interesting off-season.

 

 

 

[Ripken]

Anyone like Brandon Nimmo or Andrew Benintendi?  Both FA OFs.

 

[deward]

1 hour ago, MDS29 said:

Hays is what he is now, there are no more questions marks. Hays is a very average player who needed to show something this year and he just hasn't other than a two week stretch in June. While he passes the eye test with speed and arm strength his defensive metrics aren't very impressive. He has a track record of not staying healthy and has a poor approach at the plate. He's better than McKenna but with arbitration kicking in 2023 I'm not sure how much they want to spend on a fourth outfielder with Cowser rapidly approaching. I put a premium on Mullins defense in CF so I'd be hesitant to move Cedric. 

Its going to be a very interesting off-season.

 

 

 

Calling it a two-week stretch in June isn't entirely fair, Hays had an OPS over .800 at the end of June, after running up an OPS of .769 last year. That's a solid regular. From July 1 on, his hitting has completely collapsed, worse than any other extended stretch in his career. I'm not sure if he's playing hurt or the league just took a year and half to figure him out. I suspect that he's better than he's looked over the past two and half months, but I'm also willing to let another team work that out. I don't expect Cowser to be ready on Opening Day, but an outfield of Cowser/Mullins/Stowers by the ASB next year sounds fine to me, with Santander primarily DHing. Given that I don't expect the return for Hays to be particularly alluring, I'd be ok with keeping him around to cover the first month or two of next year (and serve as insurance in case either Cowser or Stowers gets dragged down by contact issues) and then seeing if he can be moved at the deadline. I don't think the return will get much worse, and maybe he'll revert back to hitting at his pre-July levels and become a little more valuable. 

[rm5678]

2 hours ago, Ripken said:

Anyone like Brandon Nimmo or Andrew Benintendi?  Both FA OFs.

 

I like both of them. If I had to choose between the two, I would pick Nimmo.

[DrungoHazewood]

1 hour ago, rm5678 said:

I like both of them. If I had to choose between the two, I would pick Nimmo.

Is Nimmo hurt a lot?  He seems like a good hitter but has only played 100 games twice and he's 29. 

Benintendi is okay, fine even.  But I don't see any reason to sign him as a free agent if you already have Hays, Santander, Stowers, Mullins, and McKenna at pre-free agency prices, and any number of other young outfielders who could be ready in the next year or so.

[Aristotelian]

6 hours ago, Ripken said:

Anyone like Brandon Nimmo or Andrew Benintendi?  Both FA OFs.

 

No interest unless we trade at least two of Santander, Mullins, and Hays. 

[Sports Guy]

Nimmo has been the comp for Cowser a lot.

Benitendi is a guy I only want on a cheap deal and if we have to sign someone because we have traded guys away but I would hope if they trade guys away that the plan is better than him.

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

9 hours ago, sportsfan8703 said:

As much as I hate to say it, we should sell high on Santander.  It's risky though... If Stowers doesn't pan out, Hays doesn't bounce back, Vavra doesn't pan out, and Cowser struggles, we would then likely miss the playoffs.  

I have to agree too, but the return needs to be good and preferably in the form of starting pitching. 

The question with Santander is the decrease in strikeouts and increase in walks for real or the product of a career year.

The Orioles are going to have a surplus of outfield talent and at some point Elias is going to start trading these assets for other areas of need on the roster.

 

Edited September 15, 2022 by OsFanSinceThe80s

[terpoh]

19 hours ago, RZNJ said:

 

Sometimes it's just rearranging the chairs.   I don't see the sense of creating a hole in one spot to fill another.   I would not expect Mullins, Hays, or Mountcastle to regress from this year.   In fact, like I said, I think Hays and Mountcastle are good bounce back candidates.   Mullins might be a bit better than this year too but I don't expect him to be much worse if at all.    Santander is having a very solid year but it doesn't seem like anything he can't repeat.   Of course, health is impossible to predict which is where depth comes in handy again.   Having those 3 plus Stowers and Cowser at AAA provides a bit of a safety net.

A full year of Henderson and Rutschmann should be a big boost and hopefully Rutschman is even better next year.

I don't see many holes in that lineup.  Something like.

Mullins CF

Rutschman C

Henderson 3B

Santander  RF

Mountcastle 1B

Stowers DH

Hays  LF

Urias 2B

Ortiz SS

 

I

You have 4 guys who are either hovering at .300 or below .300 OBP in this lineup plus a rookie who you're asking to also play one of the most demanding defensive positions. I understand expecting guys to bounce back but saying "no holes" when those are the same guys who cannot hit this year, I dont get. I would say, after Santander I wouldnt have much confidence that we would be scoring a ton of runs until it got back to the top. We need some upgrades from outside of the organization offensively. 

I have always been a "Hays guy" but I am at the point now where I think we probably need to explore an upgrade in the OF for his spot. Maybe that Cowser, maybe its outside the org, but I think we need to seriously look at upgrading. I also think that Santander, if hes around, has moved more into the DH role and expecting him to be the every day RF would certainly hurt our OF defense. 

Edited September 15, 2022 by terpoh