Austin Hays vs Ryan Mountcastle

[orioles22]

18 minutes ago, banks703 said:

I don't think that there is any scenario in which the three of Henderson (SS), Westburg (3B) and Ortiz (2B) are aligned this way. Personally, I feel Gunnar is best suited for 3B. 

 

Frankly, I don't know that all three of Gunnar, Westburg and Ortiz will ever be on the 26 man at the same time. Across the roster there is positional flexibility, sure, but in large part these three are extremely redundant. This is especially true when considering both the current roster construction with Mateo, Urias and Frazier as well as down the road with Holliday. The current construction means far less than three or four years from now but there is an absurd number of MI/3B options in the system no matter how you slice it, which is a very good problem to have. 

 

I won't be shocked if four years from now we see Gunnar in the outfield. Should that happen, a lot of other things have gone very right for the Orioles. 

That's why I can't figure out why we haven't put a package together for one of the Marlins' starting pitchers. You also have Mayo and Norby, who look like they may end up in the outfield or at DH because there are better defensive options in the infield.

[InsideCoroner]

I think logically Hays, but I’m going with Mountcastle. Hays has the clear defensive advantage, but I believe Mountcastle will have a bounceback season offensively, and he’s more likely to stay healthy. Although I think if Mountcastle doesn’t have an impressive season (or first half) he’s more likely to be shoved aside or dealt.

[NCRaven]

Playing Henderson in the OF would be a waste of talent.  I’d like to see Westburg get time in the corner OF positions this year.  Could use his RH’d bat to balance out Mullins, Cowser, and Kjerstad.

Given that, it’s obvious I chose Mountcastle to be better than Hays.  Purely an offense play.  

[banks703]

2 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Not sure why you dismiss that entirely.   Most think Henderson can handle SS quite well, most (maybe not Tony) think Westburg is a viable 3B, and most everyone thinks Ortiz is an above average SS or 2B.

Unless one of the three are traded, which is certainly possible, then I'd say it's almost a sure thing that all three will be on the 26-man roster at the same time.

There's a big difference between adequate/serviceable and being elite. 

 

My eyes tell me that Gunnar moves better at 3B than SS but not only that, but more importantly, virtually every scouting report on Gunnar suggests that he is elite-elite at 3B. Some have made comparisons to Manny, though I personally never bought into that because Plat-Glove Manny was the best defender, regardless of position, that I have ever seen in real-life. 

 

Ortiz is special at short and projects as the best defensive SS in the system behind Mateo. Going into 22 no one knew how good Mateo is at the position and while he certainly excelled there, I am not completely convinced that you lose anything on defense by Ortiz supplanting Mateo. Arm strength may be their separator. 

 

Gunnar isn't being traded and right now there isn't anywhere to stick all of Mateo, Gunnar, Urias and Frazier in the infield, much less Westburg and/or Ortiz. Something has to give and with the ages of Mateo (27) and Urias (28) going into 23, unless someone takes one or both of these guys off of your hands, neither Westburg nor Ortiz are likely to see much action with the big club barring injuries or extreme disappointment from one of Gunnar, Mateo, Urias and/or Frazier. 

 

Plus, you don't move a guy off of a position that he is elite (Gunnar) to a position that he can be serviceable. The same goes for Ortiz. If Gunnar and Ortiz are on the field together, Ortiz is at SS and Gunnar is somewhere else. The club has prioritized defense up the middle. Defensively at SS it's Ortiz>Gunnar. 

[RZNJ]

1 minute ago, banks703 said:

There's a big difference between adequate/serviceable and being elite. 

 

My eyes tell me that Gunnar moves better at 3B than SS but not only that, but more importantly, virtually every scouting report on Gunnar suggests that he is elite-elite at 3B. Some have made comparisons to Manny, though I personally never bought into that because Plat-Glove Manny was the best defender, regardless of position, that I have ever seen in real-life. 

 

Ortiz is special at short and projects as the best defensive SS in the system behind Mateo. Going into 22 no one knew how good Mateo is at the position and while he certainly excelled there, I am not completely convinced that you lose anything on defense by Ortiz supplanting Mateo. Arm strength may be their separator. 

 

Gunnar isn't being traded and right now there isn't anywhere to stick all of Mateo, Gunnar, Urias and Frazier in the infield, much less Westburg and/or Ortiz. Something has to give and with the ages of Mateo (27) and Urias (28) going into 23, unless someone takes one or both of these guys off of your hands, neither Westburg nor Ortiz are likely to see much action with the big club barring injuries or extreme disappointment from one of Gunnar, Mateo, Urias and/or Frazier. 

 

Plus, you don't move a guy off of a position that he is elite (Gunnar) to a position that he can be serviceable. The same goes for Ortiz. If Gunnar and Ortiz are on the field together, Ortiz is at SS and Gunnar is somewhere else. The club has prioritized defense up the middle. Defensively at SS it's Ortiz>Gunnar. 

First off, I wasn't suggesting that all three would be in the same infield to begin this year or even at any time this year but I could see them in the same infield within the next 2 years.

Secondly, I agree that all reports have 3B as Henderson's best position.   I don't know what elite elite is but lets just say he has GG potential there.   There seem to be mixed reports on what kind of SS he'll be.   I think calling him "serviceable" there is doing him a disservice.   If you've seen his agility and his arm it looks like he could certainly be above average there as well.   Ortiz should be a very good SS but Tony thinks he'd be an elite fielding 2B.     Most publications say Westburg is "serviceable" at SS but should be good at the other spots.

Having said all of that, it all comes down to where the Orioles think it best serves that team, when it comes to Henderson.   I don't think it's a slam dunk that his future is at 3B.

[Frobby]

Isn’t this thread about Hays and Mountcastle?

[RZNJ]

11 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Isn’t this thread about Hays and Mountcastle?

Not if you can read the last 10 posts.   

Edited December 27, 2022 by RZNJ

[banks703]

7 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

First off, I wasn't suggesting that all three would be in the same infield to begin this year or even at any time this year but I could see them in the same infield within the next 2 years.

Secondly, I agree that all reports have 3B as Henderson's best position.   I don't know what elite elite is but lets just say he has GG potential there.   There seem to be mixed reports on what kind of SS he'll be.   I think calling him "serviceable" there is doing him a disservice.   If you've seen his agility and his arm it looks like he could certainly be above average there as well.   Ortiz should be a very good SS but Tony thinks he'd be an elite fielding 2B.     Most publications say Westburg is "serviceable" at SS but should be good at the other spots.

Having said all of that, it all comes down to where the Orioles think it best serves that team, when it comes to Henderson.   I don't think it's a slam dunk that his future is at 3B.

Jackson Holliday is going to need to occupy one of those two spots in the middle if he isn't moved to the outfield himself or traded, which seems unlikely given the age difference between he and Gunnar. 

 

I haven't seen @Tony-OH take on the Gunnar vs. Ortiz at SS topic but I trust you're relaying his sentiments and certainly appreciate his scouting of the two. 

 

From my own personal eyes, watching some of the minor league season, to me it's not close between Ortiz>Gunnar at short. At 24, Joey's physical maturity is obviously further along than Gunnar's is at 21 and it's reasonable to think that Gunnar will outgrow SS altogether. Gunnar looks like Scott Rolen to me. I see a little bit of Brandon Crawford/Javy Baez in Joey Ortiz.  

[banks703]

20 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Isn’t this thread about Hays and Mountcastle?

You're right. You're right. My fault. 

 

 

[Ohfan67]

2 hours ago, wildcard said:

Its really about injuries and slumps.   Hays will probably be challenged if he slumps or is injured by Cowser.   Mountcastle has the same challenge from Westburg.   

Maybe it makes Hays and Mountcastle better.  And maybe it doesn't.

You really think Cowser will injure Hays? That seems like a bold move by Cowser. 

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, Ohfan67 said:

You really think Cowser will injure Hays? That seems like a bold move by Cowser. 

In Cowser's defense it will probably be accidental, it doesn't take much.

[owknows]

5 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

In Cowser's defense it will probably be accidental, it doesn't take much.

Season-ending dugout high-five

[SpOkane]

20 minutes ago, Ohfan67 said:

You really think Cowser will injure Hays? That seems like a bold move by Cowser. 

Sounds like a bad clubhouse guy. 

[maybenxtyr]

I think Hays will put up the better overall season if he's healthy. 

 

I don't know as much about some advanced stats as others, but it would seem to me that a 1B would have to be excellent at the plate to be better than a decent all around LF. Perhaps I'm wrong about that...I still think Hays has the edge though.

[yark14]

3 hours ago, wildcard said:

Westburg is a skilled infielder.  1B is a snap for him.  Give him 2 weeks in ST at 1B and he will be as good as Mountcastle defensively.  Give him a month and he will be better at 1B.

I agree he may begin in Norfolk.  But he will have something to say about that in ST.

If Westburg can play all 4 infield positions, how can you not have him on the opening day roster?  I wouldn't count him out being able to play corner outfield either.  His bat is his biggest tool, but I think with his size and athleticism he can be a jack of all trades in the field.  Not elite at any position, but can do them all well enough to keep his bat in the lineup.