Early spring bullpen thoughts

[Sports Guy]

4 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

A normal rational human being would be able to see the merits of the other side of the argument without calling them foolish.    You've spent 20 years here being tone-deaf.     I'm used to it.     Tony isn't used to being on the other end of your typical retorts to the rest of the board.

But I don’t see the merits of the other side. To me, there is no merit to the argument that he should become a 1 inning reliever and/or never start again, at least not right now.

I mean, I see the merits of why that could be the long term play. There are no merits to doing it RIGHT NOW imo. 

No one has put forth an argument that makes me believe that doing that right now is the way to go. Maybe someone could but I haven’t seen it. 

Edited March 13, 2023 by Sports Guy

[AnythingO's]

OK, at the risk of inserting myself into a fight, I do so because I think I precipitated it. For the record I'm not advocating making Hall a 1 inning RP, I am trying to keep him on a SP schedule at the MLB level, pitching 2-3 innings, ahead of or behind GRod. Why? Because in a SSS at the end of last season he was effective for 10 appearances of 1-2 innings. He can focus on fewer pitches and air it out. Try for 2 months, if it doesn't work change it up. We have 3 long men in the BP (Akin, Wells, Voth). If the tandem melts down they can cover. We have Tate coming back to be a back end guy and Means coming back also. We can try an experiment at MLB level using 2 guys to do the job of one for 2 months. Technically it's probably 2 guys for the jobs of 1.4 guys but I'll wait for FRobby to weigh in with stats supporting it being 1.375 guys . Limiting GROD to 3-4 early will leave him with innings at the end when we are in playoffs, not shutdown at 140 innings or whatever. Hall can do 2-3 innings every 5 days, early in season and if it works slowly increase the number. He should be focused on  getting to 140 innings also. If those 2 guys get you to 260 when the average starter gets to 150 I guess they would be doing the job of 1.6 guys lol , sorry Frobby. It also would mean we have 2 SPs with TOR stuff going fwd. Fire away.

[Can_of_corn]

I don't see how throwing 3-4 innings every 5/6 days is going to help Hall's career.

I think the idea of him and Grayson pitching together is NEAT and that is why folks have glomped onto it.

[AnythingO's]

13 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

I don't see how throwing 3-4 innings every 5/6 days is going to help Hall's career. I think the idea of him and Grayson pitching together is NEAT and that is why folks have glomped onto it.

Yeah, I do think the idea is NEAT and I'm old enough to say that from a historical perspective lol. I don't see where anyone but me has proposed this so nobody has glommed onto it. The benefit to Hall's career is evaluating his progression at the MLB level vs AAA where his stuff can overcome deficiencies. If he is going to succeed at MLB level as a SP the time to figure that out is getting short given his age and injury history. Building up from 1-2 last summer to 2-3 innings for the first 2 months will challenge his control and command of more pitches over a longer sampling. I maintain that it won't burnout the BP with reserves in AAA and Tate/Means coming back and 3 long guys in the BP. If he is good at 2-3 innings then go to 3-4. If he isn't send him to AAA or convert to RP. I just want to expedite the process now, not push the decision off to 2024 based on less data.

Edited March 14, 2023 by AnythingO's
typo

[CaptainRedbeard]

I think they are going to hold onto Politi. His cutter and curve look very nice pitches. It’s a question of whether his fastball will play against major league hitters, and I think he’s shown enough to give him a shot. 

Wells and Hall are going to be stretched out as starters. Wells will already be stretched out by Opening Day, Hall won’t. I think Wells is going to be sent down to stay stretched out. It will also buy back a year of his service time if he stays down a few weeks, so that works against him and I think they take that opportunity.

If Hall is continuing to get stretched out they may as well do it at the MLB level in the pen. Once he’s ready to start, either a spot in the rotation will have opened up or he’ll be sent to Norfolk (or they do a 6-man rotation). He is eligible for a comp pick if he finishes in the ROY voting if he is on the Opening Day roster and I don’t think they will want to close that door without seeing him pitch in a multi-inning role at the MLB level. They intentionally left him in the minors long enough last year for the exact long enough amount of time to keep him rookie eligible this year. If he’s dominating in 3+ inning appearances then a breakout season is not out of the question. 

[Sports Guy]

58 minutes ago, AnythingO's said:

Yeah, I do think the idea is NEAT and I'm old enough to say that from a historical perspective lol. I don't see where anyone but me has proposed this so nobody has glommed onto it. The benefit to Hall's career is evaluating his progression at the MLB level vs AAA where his stuff can overcome deficiencies. If he is going to succeed at MLB level as a SP the time to figure that out is getting short given his age and injury history. Building up from 1-2 last summer to 2-3 innings for the first 2 months will challenge his control and command of more pitches over a longer sampling. I maintain that it won't burnout the BP with reserves in AA and Tate/Means coming back and 3 long guys in the BP. If he is good at 2-3 innings then go to 3-4. If he isn't send him to AAA or convert to RP. I just want to expedite the process now, not push the decision off to 2024 based on less data.

But you don’t need him to only follow one person.  That isnt helpful. If you went the route of him going 3-4 innings multiple times a week, that’s fine. But to make it a strict follow of GRod?  That’s not really sustainable nor realistic.

[AnythingO's]

26 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

But you don’t need him to only follow one person.  That isnt helpful. If you went the route of him going 3-4 innings multiple times a week, that’s fine. But to make it a strict follow of GRod?  That’s not really sustainable nor realistic.

Ok, I can see that but how do you keep Hall on a SP schedule that way? I don't see Hyde using him regularly, he would use Akin instead, then Voth or Wells depending on if Bautista is the closer. I don't care that Hall is tied to GRod, just that he goes every 4-6 days for his 3 innings to show he can physically handle it and is effective. Then reevaluate and decide the next steps.

[Sports Guy]

3 minutes ago, AnythingO's said:

Ok, I can see that but how do you keep Hall on a SP schedule that way? I don't see Hyde using him regularly, he would use Akin instead, then Voth or Wells depending on if Bautista is the closer. I don't care that Hall is tied to GRod, just that he goes every 4-6 days for his 3 innings to show he can physically handle it and is effective. Then reevaluate and decide the next steps.

Well, I don’t think this is the way to go but I also don’t think it would be too difficult  to get him 5-7 innings a week. Maybe have a rule where he has to start an inning and that would be a way to keep him on a starter type routine?

[wildcard]

8 hours ago, AnythingO's said:

 If he is going to succeed at MLB level as a SP the time to figure that out is getting short given his age and injury history. 

Hall is 24 and  he has 2 options.   Time is not getting short for him.  They has two years to figure out where he fits with the O's.  Elias has more patience than most of us.

[btdart20]

11 hours ago, CaptainRedbeard said:

I think they are going to hold onto Politi. His cutter and curve look very nice pitches. It’s a question of whether his fastball will play against major league hitters, and I think he’s shown enough to give him a shot. 

Wells and Hall are going to be stretched out as starters. Wells will already be stretched out by Opening Day, Hall won’t. I think Wells is going to be sent down to stay stretched out. It will also buy back a year of his service time if he stays down a few weeks, so that works against him and I think they take that opportunity.

If Hall is continuing to get stretched out they may as well do it at the MLB level in the pen. Once he’s ready to start, either a spot in the rotation will have opened up or he’ll be sent to Norfolk (or they do a 6-man rotation). He is eligible for a comp pick if he finishes in the ROY voting if he is on the Opening Day roster and I don’t think they will want to close that door without seeing him pitch in a multi-inning role at the MLB level. They intentionally left him in the minors long enough last year for the exact long enough amount of time to keep him rookie eligible this year. If he’s dominating in 3+ inning appearances then a breakout season is not out of the question. 

You make some good points.  Especially on Wells and keeping him stretched out.  Wells seems to have a high enough SP floor that it could impact the wider variance of outcomes for Hall.

[Sports Guy]

3 hours ago, wildcard said:

Hall is 24 and  he has 2 options.   Time is not getting short for him.  They has two years to figure out where he fits with the O's.  Elias has more patience than most of us.

No, he’s right. The Orioles aren’t going to wait forever on Hall and they shouldn’t.

He should get another 10-15 starts. If he isn’t showing signs of real improvement at that point, you move him to the pen.

RZ keeps saying that pitching in short relief and doing well could be a big help to him. Well, he did that last year, albeit in a very small sample size.  Did that make a difference? Probably not but maybe he learned something he can take away with him.

The patience  they can have with him, in terms of what you are saying, is that you have some more time to determine if he can be a viable MLer at all but in terms of a starter, time is running out.

[Frobby]

33 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

No, he’s right. The Orioles aren’t going to wait forever on Hall and they shouldn’t.

He should get another 10-15 starts. If he isn’t showing signs of real improvement at that point, you move him to the pen.

RZ keeps saying that pitching in short relief and doing well could be a big help to him. Well, he did that last year, albeit in a very small sample size.  Did that make a difference? Probably not but maybe he learned something he can take away with him.

The patience  they can have with him, in terms of what you are saying, is that you have some more time to determine if he can be a viable MLer at all but in terms of a starter, time is running out.

Considering that Hall hasn’t pitched in a game all spring, I’d say what’s running short is the time to have him ready to start in the majors by Opening Week.  I expect the O’s to get him into some ST games and try to stretch him out, and we’ll see what happens when they do.  But I’d say it’s unlikely he’s in the O’s rotation to start the year.   

[wildcard]

42 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

No, he’s right. The Orioles aren’t going to wait forever on Hall and they shouldn’t.

He should get another 10-15 starts. If he isn’t showing signs of real improvement at that point, you move him to the pen.

RZ keeps saying that pitching in short relief and doing well could be a big help to him. Well, he did that last year, albeit in a very small sample size.  Did that make a difference? Probably not but maybe he learned something he can take away with him.

The patience  they can have with him, in terms of what you are saying, is that you have some more time to determine if he can be a viable MLer at all but in terms of a starter, time is running out.

I think they have time  to put in the AAA rotation to begin the season.   I agree that if after 10-15 starts he is not doing well then moving him to the pen would be a good move.    

But that is not the end of his trial as a starter.   If he is promoted to the O's pen and does well, next season he could be tried as a starter again.  They did it with Wells and they can do it with Hall.    There is a lot of time in Halls career left.

[Aristotelian]

43 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

No, he’s right. The Orioles aren’t going to wait forever on Hall and they shouldn’t.

He should get another 10-15 starts. If he isn’t showing signs of real improvement at that point, you move him to the pen.

RZ keeps saying that pitching in short relief and doing well could be a big help to him. Well, he did that last year, albeit in a very small sample size.  Did that make a difference? Probably not but maybe he learned something he can take away with him.

The patience  they can have with him, in terms of what you are saying, is that you have some more time to determine if he can be a viable MLer at all but in terms of a starter, time is running out.

I agree with this. We forget, Hall was looking dominant and ready for promotion at the All Star as a starter last year. Everyone on this board was calling for his promotion. Then they did that weird 1 inning start after the break that seemed to mess him up, he had two horrible starts in a row, a meh start, and another horrible one. At that point he got promoted as a reliever. Not sure if they messed him up or if he was out of gas at that point but up til then he looked bona fide. If he can put together a good stretch like the beginning of last year, he could be the next man up when there is an injury, or give Grayson a rest when he hits his limit.

[Sports Guy]

34 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Considering that Hall hasn’t pitched in a game all spring, I’d say what’s running short is the time to have him ready to start in the majors by Opening Week.  I expect the O’s to get him into some ST games and try to stretch him out, and we’ll see what happens when they do.  But I’d say it’s unlikely he’s in the O’s rotation to start the year.   

I think he’s supposed to start getting into games this week.

And yea, he obviously isn’t going to be in the starting rotation in the majors to start the year.