Jorge Mateo 2023

[Brooks The Great]

21 minutes ago, Hank Scorpio said:

I was one of them, I think I said between .800-.850 in the poll.

Guys like Henderson can go super quiet and still add value by getting on base. Guys like Mateo… can’t. It’s easy for people to fall in love with him I think because he has all the tools. But the dude is 28. 

He is what he is. A below average offensive player and an excellent defender.

That's not really accurate. He's one of the worst hitters in baseball and an excellent defender.

[Hank Scorpio]

7 minutes ago, Brooks The Great said:

That's not really accurate. He's one of the worst hitters in baseball and an excellent defender.

I guess I'm softening in my old age.

[OriolesMagic83]

I'm not sure Mateo is a better defender than Ortiz.  Mateo makes some spectacular plays but also flubs some routine plays.

[Billy F-Face3]

I've loved watching Mateo when he was electtic, but I'm now at the end of my rope. He is what he is. And I would say his defense this season hasn't been quite as good as it was last season. So I'm ready to let someone else play shortstop.

If that decision is made the dellema then becomes whether you really want Gunnar being the everyday Shortstop if your long term plan is to have Gunnar play 3rd base and Jackson Holliday or Joey Ortiz play shortstop. (They also have other solid shortstop prospects in the organization too.) If Gunnar's long term plan is to play 3rd base, then you want Gunnar getting as many reps to get as comfortable at 3rd base as possible.

I think with Ortiz, you're basically getting the same type of defensive skills as Mateo, with more upside at the plate, but a huge dropoff on the basepaths. At least with Ortiz there would be potential to grow.

With Mateo, you have to suffer through months of absolutely abysmal plate appearances just to hope you can get a couple good weeks of a hot streak. 

[Billy F-Face3]

8 minutes ago, OriolesMagic83 said:

I'm not sure Mateo is a better defender than Ortiz.  Mateo makes some spectacular plays but also flubs some routine plays.

Yeah I'm ready to start Ortiz over Mateo. I think Mateo should be used to pinch run in during opportunistic situations to manufacture runs. He'd be a good weapon coming off the bench. 

[Bahama O's Fan]

I agree with alot of people on here. Start Ortiz and put Mateo on the bench for right now.

[Frobby]

53 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I agree it went a lot faster than anyone could have imagined but still, the way people buy into SSS is unreal to me.

It is not easy for a .650 OPS guy to post a 1.062 OPS for a full month.  Obviously nobody thought he would do that all year, but the possibility of significant improvement over 2022 certainly seemed extremely realistic.  

I am pretty sure I have never before seen a 1.000+ OPS month followed by a month under .400 OPS.   It’s mind boggling to me that anyone could do that.  Honestly, I’m not sure I’ve ever seen anyone have a .316 OPS for a solid month before, regardless of what they did the previous month.  

Mateo is playing at a more normal level of putrid now, but I have to think he’s in danger of losing his starting job in the next week or two if nothing improves.  I think it was right to be patient and give him a chance to snap back a bit, but he doesn’t get forever, and the clock is ticking.  

[Bahama O's Fan]

If Mateo would just learn to lay down a bunt. Tonight, in two of his at vats, the Tampa 3B was playing deep. He could have jogged to first if he bunted.

[Moose Milligan]

I don’t think Mateo is going anywhere anytime soon. And I agree, the defense, while still very good, isn’t as good as it was last year. Has nothing to do with the range, he’s botched some easier plays. 
 

But I don’t think he’s going anywhere anytime soon. This is the same brain trust that trotted Odor out for a whole season last year. At least Mateo brings a very good glove…Odor didn’t do anything great except strike out. 
 

This is a brain trust that gave McCann at bats at DH this year. This is a brain trust that likes to carry three catchers for anywhere from 24-72 hours for no explainable reason. This is a brain trust that has yet to give significant playing time to Ortiz and doesn’t appear to be coming close to calling up Westburg anytime soon.  This is a brain trust that will trot Mountcastle out to first base as soon as he returns from the IL, putting the much better O’Hearn back on the bench. 
 

Don’t get me wrong, Elias and Hyde have done a lot of great things. And this team has been a winner for over a full season now. But to pretend that they will do away with an underperforming player on offense just because there seems to be a better option available is foolish. 

[Going Underground]

8 hours ago, Frobby said:

It is not easy for a .650 OPS guy to post a 1.062 OPS for a full month.  Obviously nobody thought he would do that all year, but the possibility of significant improvement over 2022 certainly seemed extremely realistic.  

I am pretty sure I have never before seen a 1.000+ OPS month followed by a month under .400 OPS.   It’s mind boggling to me that anyone could do that.  Honestly, I’m not sure I’ve ever seen anyone have a .316 OPS for a solid month before, regardless of what they did the previous month.  

Mateo is playing at a more normal level of putrid now, but I have to think he’s in danger of losing his starting job in the next week or two if nothing improves.  I think it was right to be patient and give him a chance to snap back a bit, but he doesn’t get forever, and the clock is ticking.  

My scout friend seems to think that after he hits a homer or two that he gets enamored with the long ball. Swing gets long and no plate discipline and tries to pull outside pitches and gets weak contact. Then perhaps for a few weeks,  he tries to go with the pitch and has a good few weeks. 

[Aristotelian]

2 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I don’t think Mateo is going anywhere anytime soon. And I agree, the defense, while still very good, isn’t as good as it was last year. Has nothing to do with the range, he’s botched some easier plays. 
 

But I don’t think he’s going anywhere anytime soon. This is the same brain trust that trotted Odor out for a whole season last year. At least Mateo brings a very good glove…Odor didn’t do anything great except strike out. 
 

This is a brain trust that gave McCann at bats at DH this year. This is a brain trust that likes to carry three catchers for anywhere from 24-72 hours for no explainable reason. This is a brain trust that has yet to give significant playing time to Ortiz and doesn’t appear to be coming close to calling up Westburg anytime soon.  This is a brain trust that will trot Mountcastle out to first base as soon as he returns from the IL, putting the much better O’Hearn back on the bench. 
 

Don’t get me wrong, Elias and Hyde have done a lot of great things. And this team has been a winner for over a full season now. But to pretend that they will do away with an underperforming player on offense just because there seems to be a better option available is foolish. 

I try not to make predictions on this board. Last year we were less than 10% to make the playoffs at our peak. Right now we are sitting at 65%. We don't know what Elias is going to do in this situation.I agree he is unlikely to fully get rid of Mateo but he could be reduced to a platoon role to start and then see how the rookies do. Something like we were starting to do with Mountcastle. Question is how to make it work without getting rid of anybody.

Mateo's last two months have been really, really bad. When you add them up though with April he has basically replicated his 3 WAR performance from last year. If he puts up another .400 month I think something has to give. But maybe he turns things around and puts up a typical .600-700 month and then he is still looking like a 2-3 WAR guy. That is a pretty high bar to beat for a rookie. Could happen but probably not all at once if a full time job is handed to them.

[owknows]

The object lesson here, is that when you have a reclamation project guy playing in a position that you stacked to the rafters in MiLB.... and he is outperforming established career norms... by a lot... you TRADE him.

Mateo should have been traded in the offseason to make way for any one of 5 emerging players. You could argue that any one of those 5 players might not translate to the majors. You can't credibly argue that none of them will.

But instead of trading we added another middle infielder in the off season, making that an even bigger problem.

Now we've lost any potential trade value, and we're stuck with an albatross while building frustration in the farm as a slow-motion pileup unfolds. All very predictable. All very much predicted here.

[Sports Guy]

8 minutes ago, owknows said:

The object lesson here, is that when you have a reclamation project guy playing in a position that you stacked to the rafters in MiLB.... and he is outperforming established career norms... by a lot... you TRADE him.

Mateo should have been traded in the offseason to make way for any one of 5 emerging players. You could argue that any one of those 5 players might not translate to the majors. You can't credibly argue that none of them will.

But instead of trading we added another middle infielder in the off season, making that an even bigger problem.

Now we've lost any potential trade value, and we're stuck with an albatross while building frustration in the farm as a slow-motion pileup unfolds. All very predictable. All very much predicted here.

I don’t disagree with you but all of this assumes he had trade value in the offseason.

[Moose Milligan]

29 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

I try not to make predictions on this board. Last year we were less than 10% to make the playoffs at our peak. Right now we are sitting at 65%. We don't know what Elias is going to do in this situation.I agree he is unlikely to fully get rid of Mateo but he could be reduced to a platoon role to start and then see how the rookies do. Something like we were starting to do with Mountcastle. Question is how to make it work without getting rid of anybody.

Mateo's last two months have been really, really bad. When you add them up though with April he has basically replicated his 3 WAR performance from last year. If he puts up another .400 month I think something has to give. But maybe he turns things around and puts up a typical .600-700 month and then he is still looking like a 2-3 WAR guy. That is a pretty high bar to beat for a rookie. Could happen but probably not all at once if a full time job is handed to them.

Make all the predictions you want, that's part of what this place is for.  You just make it once, hope no one really pays attention and don't keep repeating yourself.  Or else you'll end up like @Sports Guybeing remembered for his love affairs with Casey Kotchman and Brandon Wood.

In regards to what Elias will/won't do with regards to Mateo and the playoff odds...if they're trending at 65% and getting higher with each successive win at this pace, I doubt Elias does anything to shake up this team.  Outside of the Lopez and Mancini trades, he didn't last year, like I said he kept trotting out Odor.  And Mancini was one of the faces of the team...so if he trades Mancini last year with the team winning and playoff chances around 10%, what do you think he does this year with a guy like Santander or Hays and our playoff chances at 65%?  

I mean, that's what's so frustrating about it all, this team is winning at a really good clip and beating some tough teams, all the while it appears that there are underperformers and this team could be better.  But Elias clearly disagrees so far.

[Can_of_corn]

14 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I don’t disagree with you but all of this assumes he had trade value in the offseason.

Had to be higher than it is now.