Gunnar Henderson 2023

[Frobby]

15 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

I believe he should have made that play even if it was scored an error so most of that WPA falls on him. Good defenders routinely take away plays that would be scored hits. Ultimately I agree it is unfair to say Gunnar singlehandedly cost us the game but it was a big play that he should be expected to make.

There was nothing routine about that play.   I agree it was possible to make it; it looks like an accurate throw would have beaten the runner by a nose.  But I'd bet you that's a hit 4 times out of 5.  

[baltfan]

45 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

I believe he should have made that play even if it was scored an error so most of that WPA falls on him. Good defenders routinely take away plays that would be scored hits. Ultimately I agree it is unfair to say Gunnar singlehandedly cost us the game but it was a big play that he should be expected to make.

It was scored a hit and an error. 

[Alasdaire]

I don't know if win probability can account for this, but Yennier is an extreme ground ball pitcher at 58.2%. With him on the mound specifically, I don't think the runner reaching first hurts your chances as much as it would with other pitchers since the double play is a high-probability outcome.

The worst-case scenario there is wiping out the possibility of a double play and actually putting the runner in a position where a ground ball advances him to third with one out so that he can score on yet another ground ball.

Maybe I'm being too exacting, but shortstops are like quarterbacks. They're involved in so many plays that they have to be aware of all of the different permutations. I admit that I've thought it might be best to stick Gunnar at third at least for this season because it shrinks his responsibilities and lets him focus on charging balls and whipping it across the diamond.

[Ohfan67]

I didn’t get to see tonight’s game against the Diamondbacks, but I just saw the highlight video of Gunnar’s play. Wow. That was an amazing and incredibly unique play. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anything quite like that play. And the guy at third is very fast. Pretty spectacular. 

[Frobby]

4 minutes ago, Ohfan67 said:

I didn’t get to see tonight’s game against the Diamondbacks, but I just saw the highlight video of Gunnar’s play. Wow. That was an amazing and incredibly unique play. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anything quite like that play. And the guy at third is very fast. Pretty spectacular. 

The catch and tag by Rutschman also was excellent.  

[joelala]

6 hours ago, Ohfan67 said:

I didn’t get to see tonight’s game against the Diamondbacks, but I just saw the highlight video of Gunnar’s play. Wow. That was an amazing and incredibly unique play. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anything quite like that play. And the guy at third is very fast. Pretty spectacular. 

Good chance that will be the best play of his career. And that is in no way a slight. The play was that incredible. 

[Aristotelian]

That whole game was a defensive masterclass by Gunnar. In addition to the catch and throw double play, he had a tough short hop off a liner and a tough backhander on a bouncer, as well as a GIDP he turned himself. The fly ball double play was special though. Maybe he learns that he is better off when he takes a second to plant before he throws.

[Frobby]

24 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

That whole game was a defensive masterclass by Gunnar. In addition to the catch and throw double play, he had a tough short hop off a liner and a tough backhander on a bouncer, as well as a GIDP he turned himself. The fly ball double play was special though. Maybe he learns that he is better off when he takes a second to plant before he throws.

He also misplayed a one-hopper to his backhand side hit by Carroll.  It was scored a hit, but IMO it was a 50/50 play if Gunnar fields it cleanly.   So, I’d exclude that play from Gunnar’s master class.   

[Aristotelian]

1 minute ago, Frobby said:

He also misplayed a one-hopper to his backhand side hit by Carroll.  It was scored a hit, but IMO it was a 50/50 play if Gunnar fields it cleanly.   So, I’d exclude that play from Gunnar’s master class.   

I agreed with the broadcasters that he had no chance to get Carroll there. Maybe more like 10/90. But you are right, you'd at least like to see him field that one cleanly and get off a good throw. 

[banks703]

For all of the folks speculating about Holliday moving Gunnar off of short - it ain’t happening. You are never going to get plays like that from Holliday. Never.

Here’s a fangraphs article mentioning some of the things that I’ve observed of Holliday:

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/lets-watch-some-shortstop-prospects-play-defense/
 

“Holliday isn’t currently a big league-quality shortstop defender, but he’s talented enough to project as a suitable one within the next couple of years. He’s most comfortable throwing on the move from right to left, and he often goes out of his way to do so even when it isn’t called for. His ability to make accurate throws from odd platforms is impressive, as are Holliday’s poise and internal clock. But his hands are not always sound, and Holliday lets a lot of choppers take an unnecessarily high hop, with the direction of that hop sometimes surprising him. He needs to do a better job of staying low and attacking this type of groundball closer to the ground, especially when he’s moving toward the hole to his right. He also tends to take an extra step or two to gather himself before throwing, which the speed of major league play might not allow for. Again, I think Holliday will eventually be fine, but right now his bat is pretty comfortably ahead of his defense.”

I’ve posted constantly that Gunnar is the superior defender at shortstop. Holliday is not moving him off the position. Gunnar has settled in so well there that I’m not even sure that Joey moves Gunnar. Gunnar has gotten so much better and so much more consistent there this year that I am even surprised by just how much. He is a bonafide superstar. 

 

31 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

That whole game was a defensive masterclass by Gunnar. In addition to the catch and throw double play, he had a tough short hop off a liner and a tough backhander on a bouncer, as well as a GIDP he turned himself. The fly ball double play was special though. Maybe he learns that he is better off when he takes a second to plant before he throws.

 

[banks703]

10 minutes ago, Frobby said:

He also misplayed a one-hopper to his backhand side hit by Carroll.  It was scored a hit, but IMO it was a 50/50 play if Gunnar fields it cleanly.   So, I’d exclude that play from Gunnar’s master class.   

He couldn’t come up with the backhand but there was zero chance he was getting Carroll. That’s one that I would have preferred he put in his pocket anyway. Zero chance they record the out there with who was running. I just watched the replay. Carroll was almost to first by the time Gunnar booted the ball. 

[terpoh]

43 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

That whole game was a defensive masterclass by Gunnar. In addition to the catch and throw double play, he had a tough short hop off a liner and a tough backhander on a bouncer, as well as a GIDP he turned himself. The fly ball double play was special though. Maybe he learns that he is better off when he takes a second to plant before he throws.

His WAR shouldve gone up about a run from his defense last night alone. 

[Frobby]

2 minutes ago, banks703 said:

For all of the folks speculating about Holliday moving Gunnar off of short - it ain’t happening. You are never going to get plays like that from Holliday. Never.

Here’s a fangraphs article mentioning some of the things that I’ve observed of Holliday:

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/lets-watch-some-shortstop-prospects-play-defense/
 

“Holliday isn’t currently a big league-quality shortstop defender, but he’s talented enough to project as a suitable one within the next couple of years. He’s most comfortable throwing on the move from right to left, and he often goes out of his way to do so even when it isn’t called for. His ability to make accurate throws from odd platforms is impressive, as are Holliday’s poise and internal clock. But his hands are not always sound, and Holliday lets a lot of choppers take an unnecessarily high hop, with the direction of that hop sometimes surprising him. He needs to do a better job of staying low and attacking this type of groundball closer to the ground, especially when he’s moving toward the hole to his right. He also tends to take an extra step or two to gather himself before throwing, which the speed of major league play might not allow for. Again, I think Holliday will eventually be fine, but right now his bat is pretty comfortably ahead of his defense.”

I’ve posted constantly that Gunnar is the superior defender at shortstop. Holliday is not moving him off the position. Gunnar has settled in so well there that I’m not even sure that Joey moves Gunnar. Gunnar has gotten so much better and so much more consistent there this year that I am even surprised by just how much. He is a bonafide superstar. 

 

 

I am glad you posted this, and that @Can_of_cornposted it in the Holliday thread on the minor league board.  It does throw cold water on the idea that Holliday is going to waltz in here next April and supplant Gunnar at SS.

However, let’s remember that Holliday is only 19, in his first full season of minor league ball.   Gunnar was quite erratic defensively in his first full year, though a year older and having had prior instruction in the Covid-year Alt Site workouts.  He then improved by leaps and bounds in his second full year at age 21.   So, we could see similar improvement from Holliday.   I’m not making any predictions about that, just saying it’s easily within the realm of possibility.   

[Sports Guy]

I love it when people say there is zero chance that someone will do something because at 19, they need to improve.  It’s such a moronic thing to say.

Basically everyone could have made that play.  It was done with perfection but these are the best players in the world. The things they can do are miraculous. 
 

 

[Frobby]

13 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

 

Basically everyone could have made that play.  It was done with perfection but these are the best players in the world. The things they can do are miraculous. 
 

 

Basically everyone?   No, I don’t think so.  There’s a lot of guys who don’t have Gunnar’s speed or his arm.   

I’d say even Gunnar probably couldn’t execute that play more than one time out of 10.