I was worried about our starting rotation

[Baltimorecuse]

13 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

It was very clear what I was talking about. If you can’t figure it out, I dont know what to tell you. 

You were talking about nothing.  Not being a Buddhist I have a hard time understanding nothing.  

[Big Mac]

Without looking into detail at every other contenders' starting rotations, I think it's fair to say the O's probably are in a unique position in terms of every single starter other than Gibson, and I guess Flaherty now, being on track to blow past their previous career highs in IP.  I am pretty sure Elias himself has acknowledged this. 

[Sports Guy]

8 minutes ago, Baltimorecuse said:

You were talking about nothing.  Not being a Buddhist I have a hard time understanding nothing.  

Lol..sure thing sparky. As always, it was painful trying to converse with you.

[Baltimorecuse]

8 minutes ago, jabba72 said:

Well the 5 full days of rest should help them recover from their new innings highs, thats the theory anyway. They'll be blowing past their innings highs if they advance in the playoffs.

All season long Hyde has babied the starters as much as he can.  It's a marathon.  Does any team have a rotation of low inning pitchers right now?  I think not.  

Cy Young once started both ends of a double header.  They built them different back in the day.  

[Sports Guy]

15 minutes ago, jabba72 said:

Well the 5 full days of rest should help them recover from their new innings highs, thats the theory anyway. They'll be blowing past their innings highs if they advance in the playoffs.

Yea but think about it, how many starts will they miss with this extra rest? 1? Maybe 2 if they keep it up, which I don’t think they will.

So, it’s maybe 5-10 innings they save..something like that.  GRod is still going to blow past his previous high..hell, they all are.  Where these guys are a month from now is going to tell a lot.

Means potentially becomes extremely important.

[Malike]

What happens with Means is going to be very important. Toronto basically added another SP in Ryu who had TJ surgery 2 months after Means in '22 and he's been really good for them, it would be a huge boon if he can be effective down the stretch for us.

[jabba72]

13 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Yea but think about it, how many starts will they miss with this extra rest? 1? Maybe 2 if they keep it up, which I don’t think they will.

So, it’s maybe 5-10 innings they save..something like that.  GRod is still going to blow past his previous high.., they all are.  Where these guys are a month from now is going to tell a lot.

Means potentially becomes extremely important.

I think the extra 5 sometimes even 6 full days of rest really helps recover the arm. Especially when the norm is 4 days of rest between 90-100 pitches. So missing an extra start or two helps, but that extra day or two also makes things easier. 

[Sanity Check]

20 minutes ago, Baltimorecuse said:

All season long Hyde has babied the starters as much as he can.  It's a marathon.  Does any team have a rotation of low inning pitchers right now?  I think not.  

Cy Young once started both ends of a double header.  They built them different back in the day.  

Everyone just babies them more.  I do wish someone could really come up with something concrete as to why Nolan Ryan, Jim Palmer and Catfish Hunter could throw so many innings back in the day, and guys now can't.  I do wonder if weight-lifting for pitchers was as prevalent back then.  I don't know the answer, though.

[Sanity Check]

I do find it amazing how a great season just leads us to find something else to stress over.  If we weren't making the playoffs, this wouldn't even be a topic.

But, let's face it, the starters and the relievers have both been used more than we'd like - but hey, that's what got us here.  Would we like all of them to be fresher?  Sure.  But that's not reality for any team that gets to the playoffs.  It's not like it's just our problem.....every playoff team will have the same dilemma.  So, it'll come down to who's tired, overworked pitchers pitch the best in each short series, unless one team (like the Royals did with us), gets really hot offensively at the right time.

Let's embrace it, and not fret over it....

[Fiver6565]

2 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

Everyone just babies them more.  I do wish someone could really come up with something concrete as to why Nolan Ryan, Jim Palmer and Catfish Hunter could throw so many innings back in the day, and guys now can't.  I do wonder if weight-lifting for pitchers was as prevalent back then.  I don't know the answer, though.

You probably just answered your own question by rattling off the names of three clear hall of fame pitchers.  There's a reason they are in HOF.  You don't see a guy like Scherzer or Verlander - both also future HOF pitchers - on innings limits.  You're talking about guys at the beginning of their careers, and you are talking about guys who are very likely not going to be those types of pitchers long term.  I have no issue with 'babying' guys.  Its a young staff and certain precautions need to be taken.  Two years from now if we have the same staff (we won't, but for the sake of conversation), the handling would/will be quite different, as it should be.

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

Everyone just babies them more.  I do wish someone could really come up with something concrete as to why Nolan Ryan, Jim Palmer and Catfish Hunter could throw so many innings back in the day, and guys now can't.  I do wonder if weight-lifting for pitchers was as prevalent back then.  I don't know the answer, though.

Ryan was a freak.

Guys like Palmer didn't have to throw full effort, you had less power in the game and lineups weren't as deep.

Eddie Murray was a prime HR threat and his career high was 33.

Mountcastle has had a 33 HR season.

[Sanity Check]

1 minute ago, Fiver6565 said:

You probably just answered your own question by rattling off the names of three clear hall of fame pitchers.  There's a reason they are in HOF.  You don't see a guy like Scherzer or Verlander - both also future HOF pitchers - on innings limits.  You're talking about guys at the beginning of their careers, and you are talking about guys who are very likely not going to be those types of pitchers long term.  I have no issue with 'babying' guys.  Its a young staff and certain precautions need to be taken.  Two years from now if we have the same staff (we won't, but for the sake of conversation), the handling would/will be quite different, as it should be.

I hear you, but if I looked hard enough, I'm sure I'd find many more who didn't make the hall of fame and pitched boatloads of innings.  I guess guys who didn't pitch a lot of innings back then weren't good enough to be in games very long.  Guys like McNally and Cuellar are not in the HOF, but they pitched a lot of innings.  Doyle Alexander comes to mind.  Pitch counts weren't a thing in the 70's....results were.

Now, to be honest, I do think either the strike zone was called differently back then, or there was a lot less nibbling.  I don't know the answer to those either, but I don't recall guys being at 80 pitches in the 5th inning very often back then, unless they were getting lit up.

[Sanity Check]

3 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Ryan was a freak.

Guys like Palmer didn't have to throw full effort, you had less power in the game and lineups weren't as deep.

Eddie Murray was a prime HR threat and his career high was 33.

Mountcastle has had a 33 HR season.

Great points....I have to think that the smaller modern-day parks also contribute to the inflated power numbers.

[EddeeEddee]

8 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

Everyone just babies them more.  I do wish someone could really come up with something concrete as to why Nolan Ryan, Jim Palmer and Catfish Hunter could throw so many innings back in the day, and guys now can't.  I do wonder if weight-lifting for pitchers was as prevalent back then.  I don't know the answer, though.

It's a different game now not only because there are so many more games -- at least for the good teams that make the playoffs -- but also so many more teams. 

The playoff expansion means the pitchers on the best teams have to log more innings and are more susceptible to fatigue and injury.

And the presence of more teams means there are so many pitchers in the league that may not have even made the major leagues several decades ago.  But even 50 years ago how many pitchers had the stamina and longevity of someone like Nolan Ryan or Jim Palmer?  Even back then it was pretty rare. 

 

[Frobby]

14 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

Everyone just babies them more.  I do wish someone could really come up with something concrete as to why Nolan Ryan, Jim Palmer and Catfish Hunter could throw so many innings back in the day, and guys now can't.  I do wonder if weight-lifting for pitchers was as prevalent back then.  I don't know the answer, though.

It’s simple.  They didn’t throw max effort on every pitch.   Managers were very reluctant to pull their starters because relievers weren’t very good, so starters had to pace themselves.  Nowadays, it’s clear that a fresh reliever is better than a tired starter, so starters go max effort and get relieved as soon as they start losing effectiveness. 

In 1939, batters’ OPS against starters was about 15 points lower than against relievers.  Today it’s 30 points higher.  So, the calculus about when to pull the starter has changed considerably.