Tejada is back and killing us again!

[El Gordo]

Tejada's not killing us but he would help even more than he does if he would show some better plate discipline.

Vlad might be better if he did the same and so might Ichiro, but that's not their game and when you are that good for that long you don't monkey with things. the same is true for Miggy.

[TGO]

I am completely flabbergasted and disappointed that you would write a post like this. I see a very, very big difference between someone STARTING a thread to post something inane like "Tejada is killing us" and then using two completely incorrect statements to "back up" his point versus someone stating an opinion in the heat of a debate w/o writing IMHO. The fact that you would come down on me and others who are trying to limit this sort of crap speaks volumes about the current state of the board IMHO. I don't have any problem with opinions, even unpopular ones, but if someone is going to start a thread with something this incendiary, their premise better either be supported or they should make it very clear that this is opinion.

This post criticizing me has sold me on the fact that it is time for me to step away. Thanks, because I had been debating it all morning.

I agree with you, after all the OP started this whole thread with one point that was debatable and one that was an outright lie.

But why take your ball and go home? It just makes the environment here worse if people are going to publicly announce they're taking a break from the board. I mean, do what you want but I'm not going anywhere.

EDIT: Personally I think rumors of the OH's death have been greatly exagerrated. Some people need to calm down a little but this place is still awesome and I wouldn't be able to stay away from it for a day if I tried.

[blueberryale77]

I am completely flabbergasted and disappointed that you would write a post like this. I see a very, very big difference between someone STARTING a thread to post something inane like "Tejada is killing us" and then using two completely incorrect statements to "back up" his point versus someone stating an opinion in the heat of a debate w/o writing IMHO. The fact that you would come down on me and others who are trying to limit this sort of crap speaks volumes about the current state of the board IMHO. I don't have any problem with opinions, even unpopular ones, but if someone is going to start a thread with something this incendiary, their premise better either be supported or they should make it very clear that this is opinion.

This post criticizing me has sold me on the fact that it is time for me to step away. Thanks, because I had been debating it all morning.

You're taking things a bit too personally here. Taken one by one, most of the posts aren't too bad. As a group, there is a lot of piling on and group-think that goes on and sometimes I think some posters need to stop and think "gee, three other posters have just said the same thing, do I really need to jump on this person too?" As I recall your response was one of the first, so that certainly wasn't directed specifically at you.

I can see people felt like the starter of the thread posted his opinion as fact, and he/she certainly made some assumptions (namely that Tejada called off Gomez) that may very well be completely innacurate. In the interest of fostering positive discussion, the ideal response would have been for someone to reply to the post politely asking the poster to be more clear about framing their opinions as opinions and not make assumptions about communications between players that they weren't privy to.

We have a lot of new posters since Perlozzo got fired. A lot of them are struggling to learn the rules and/or the informal customs of this online community. There are different ways to deal with that. To me, lashing out and ostracizing them is not the best way.

As to the substance of your post, responding to opinions presented as fact by stating your opinions to the contrary as fact does not right the situation. Every one of us is entitled to our opinion about how much effort Tejada put into running out that double play ball. I too was watching the NESN broadcast and do not at all agree with your assessment. As for the Tejada-Gomez play, only Tejada and Gomez know for sure whether anybody called anybody off. You can't call the thread-starter's statements false because neither one of you knows for sure.

All I was asking for was a climate of civility. You can certainly provide constructive criticism and correct or call into question patently false statements, but a board that provides as much informative content as this one should be a place where newer, younger fans can go to learn about baseball, not to be bashed. One thing I think a lot of people lose track of is that since we can't see eachother, we don't know if a new poster is a 45 year old man or a 12 year old kid. Anger and venom shouldn't be the automatic response. That's it.

/steps off soap box

Sorry for the length of rant(s). I think I need to take a couple of steps back from this board too.

[CrimsonTribe]

His range is below average, but not way below. He gets to more balls in the hole than most SS and obviously has the great arm to make the plays. It may actually just be more positioning than range, as he does play closer to the hole than most b/c he's got the arm to get outs on balls that most of SS watch roll into LF.

And what does very average mean?

Some players are just more average than others.

[SilentJames]

Shuey, Parrish and Bradford conspire to give up the lead we had built against a very tough team.

But its Miguel's fault we lost because he didn't hit TWO home runs!

It certainly isn't Aubrey Huff swinging like a 5 year old girl and whiffing on 3 pitches from Papelbon in the 9th. It certainly wasn't the bullpen.

If anything the fact that Tejada hit a ball out of FENWAY on one of the best set-up men in the league is very encouraging that his power stroke is back.

Last 4 games:

7 for 16

1 HR

5 RBI

3 R

Yeah, he's killing us. Sure.

[33rdst]

This thread has afforded us an opportunity to discuss a fundamental issue that has existed on this board since the publication of "Moneyball". Namely, how credible is observation as a method for judging a players ability. I would argue that as consequence of Moneyball, "observation" has received a bad wrap, especially on this board.

Now, of course the credability of observation as a method of assessment certainly depends on the skill and experience of the observer. With regard to the comments made by the author of this thread about Tejada, I suppose we could call into question his expertice. Is he a professional scout, what experience does he have in evaluating talent etc.. But the fact is that it has been reported by many professional scouts, that based on their observations, Tejada's skills have significantly declined, both in terms of his power numbers and his range.

The point is that whether ones opinion is based on statistical analysis or "objective data or the comments of professional observers, everyones opinions should be respected for what the are, opinions. Now, the manner in which those opinions are expressed is foder for another thread all together.

[CrimsonTribe]

This thread has afforded us an opportunity to discuss a fundamental issue that has existed on this board since the publication of "Moneyball". Namely, how credible is observation as a method for judging a players ability. I would argue that as consequence of Moneyball, "observation" has received a bad wrap, especially on this board.

Now, of course the credability of observation as a method of assessment certainly depends on the skill and experience of the observer. With regard to the comments made by the author of this thread about Tejada, I suppose we could call into question his expertice. Is he a professional scout, what experience does he have in evaluating talent etc.. But the fact is that it has been reported by many professional scouts, that based on their observations, Tejada's skills have significantly declined, both in terms of his power numbers and his range.

The point is that whether ones opinion is based on statistical analysis or "objective data or the comments of professional observers, everyones opinions should be respected for what the are, opinions. Now, the manner in which those opinions are expressed is foder for another thread all together.

I don't think you are going to find many people here who are going to completely eschew either first hand observation or statistical analysis, but most people will put more weight on one or the other. Additionally, some of us just can't watch games so we have to entirely rely upon stats. The problem is when a poster presents an opinion that is completely baseless and doesn't rely on ANYTHING but pure conjecture to back it up. When that happens, a flaming is sure to happen.

[El Gordo]

Threads like this make me want to put half the board on ignore.

Sounds like a plan.

[Frobby]

Threads like this make me want to put half the board on ignore.

And the other half wants to put you on ignore! Just kidding, SG, just kidding. I just couldn't resist.

[El Gordo]

You're taking things a bit too personally here. Taken one by one, most of the posts aren't too bad. As a group, there is a lot of piling on and group-think that goes on and sometimes I think some posters need to stop and think "gee, three other posters have just said the same thing, do I really need to jump on this person too?" As I recall your response was one of the first, so that certainly wasn't directed specifically at you.

I can see people felt like the starter of the thread posted his opinion as fact, and he/she certainly made some assumptions (namely that Tejada called off Gomez) that may very well be completely innacurate. In the interest of fostering positive discussion, the ideal response would have been for someone to reply to the post politely asking the poster to be more clear about framing their opinions as opinions and not make assumptions about communications between players that they weren't privy to.

We have a lot of new posters since Perlozzo got fired. A lot of them are struggling to learn the rules and/or the informal customs of this online community. There are different ways to deal with that. To me, lashing out and ostracizing them is not the best way.

As to the substance of your post, responding to opinions presented as fact by stating your opinions to the contrary as fact does not right the situation. Every one of us is entitled to our opinion about how much effort Tejada put into running out that double play ball. I too was watching the NESN broadcast and do not at all agree with your assessment. As for the Tejada-Gomez play, only Tejada and Gomez know for sure whether anybody called anybody off. You can't call the thread-starter's statements false because neither one of you knows for sure.

All I was asking for was a climate of civility. You can certainly provide constructive criticism and correct or call into question patently false statements, but a board that provides as much informative content as this one should be a place where newer, younger fans can go to learn about baseball, not to be bashed. One thing I think a lot of people lose track of is that since we can't see eachother, we don't know if a new poster is a 45 year old man or a 12 year old kid. Anger and venom shouldn't be the automatic response. That's it.

/steps off soap box

Sorry for the length of rant(s). I think I need to take a couple of steps back from this board too.

Excellent and much needed post IMHO.

[bobmc]

And the other half wants to put you on ignore! Just kidding, SG, just kidding. I just couldn't resist.

It's the same half, I believe.

[Sports Guy]

And the other half wants to put you on ignore! Just kidding, SG, just kidding. I just couldn't resist.

Trust me, i wish half this board would put me on ignore.

[Eli Eon]

This simply isn't true. It's been proven time and time again by every statistical measure out there that Tejada is at least average, and most of the time above average at SS.

When did it become acceptable to make things up out of thin air and pass them off as fact? I respect any and all opinions, but you've got to be able to back them up.

Well, over his career or historically, using stats you are correct. However, during his recent stint on the DL he was clearly outplayed defensively by any of the trio of Hernandez, Fahey, and Gomez. So if he is above average what does that make them? Superstars?

[Sports Guy]

Well, over his career or historically, using stats you are correct. However, during his recent stint on the DL he was clearly outplayed defensively by the any of the trio of Hernandez, Fahey, and Gomez. So if he is above average what does that make them? Superstars?

Yes, he was clearly outplayed..If you don't know what you are talking about or how to evaluate.

[The Wedge]

How many times must it be said that each of the three subs for Tejada at SS are better than him overall defensively, without question, but it's not worth removing his bat from the lineup (or making him a more full time DH which could screw with his head and then his offense) for a negligble gain in defense?