If you could add 1 prospect down the stretch, who would it be?

[foxfield]

On 8/3/2023 at 3:03 PM, banks703 said:

They're not moving the far superior Gunnar off of short to play Holliday AND sit all of Westburg, Urias and Mateo. I'll bet my life savings this won't happen. 

Take it to the bank....he says....

On 8/3/2023 at 4:48 PM, ShoelesJoe said:

To me it came down to Ortiz or Hall, and I went with Joey because he’d likely push Mateo off the roster. He’s also killing it at AAA and clearly deserves to be on the big league squad. 

I think anyone saying the goal should be to get Ortiz here to get Mateo off the roster is looking at this the wrong way.  Period.  

That doesn't mean the reasoning is wrong, but in fairness at the All Star break, the person no one wanted back on the roster was Mountcastle.  It isn't necessarily a bad thing that our opening day SS is fighting for playing time.  He is pushing and obviously isn't performing.  And we all see that he hasn't performed in a while.  I agree with the idea that Ortiz would have a good chance to outperform Mateo.  But I would have given Mountcastle away for a Chris Davis autograph two weeks ago.

My beef isn't making a change.  My beef is we shouldn't be focused on getting Mateo off the roster.  And I am certain the Orioles are not looking at it that way.  The Orioles are strong enough that there are good people, pushing for lots of space.  O'hearn, Mountcastle, Frazier, Hays, Hicks and yes, Mateo.

And yet...in spite of our objections, each of these guys have played a role and made contributions.  I think the brass has earned enough rope to play this out how they think best.  But I think when they make a move...if they make a move, they will make the one they believe helps the most and gives them the most flexibility.  Mateo is unquestionably the least productive player on the roster today.  That does not mean they do not see value going forward.

[Bemorewins]

45 minutes ago, Alasdaire said:

I'm not coming at you specifically, but I think Ortiz the hitter doesn't get the respect he deserves because he wasn't a top-five draft pick or an overslot prep bat. But despite how well all of those guys are doing themselves, Ortiz is arguably outperforming all of them at the plate.

He was promoted to Norfolk at the end of August of last year and has OPS'd ~.970 since then. And the vast majority of those at bats have been against pitchers older than him on account of it being AAA, so it's not like he's a guy who is old for the level and beating up on younger pitchers.

I'm not saying that Ortiz would definitely come up and outperform Urias or Frazier. But if Cowser or Westburg or Kjerstad are given that benefit of the doubt, there's no reason Joey shouldn't be as well.

It appears that you really love Ortiz. I don’t fault you for that preference. 

But I have one point of disagreement. I don’t think it can be said/argued that Ortiz has outperformed Holliday offensively this year. 

Joey Ortiz is in his prime at age 25 putting up impressive numbers at AAA. While Jackson Holliday who is still a teenager is already putting up BETTER numbers despite being 5 1/2 years younger.

[George Zuverink]

It's interesting to see that the voting for Hall has picked up since reports of his performance and velocity yesterday.

[NCRaven]

They will not wait until September 1 to put Hall and Wells into the bullpen.

[Alasdaire]

56 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

It appears that you really love Ortiz. I don’t fault you for that preference. 

But I have one point of disagreement. I don’t think it can be said/argued that Ortiz has outperformed Holliday offensively this year. 

Joey Ortiz is in his prime at age 25 putting up impressive numbers at AAA. While Jackson Holliday who is still a teenager is already putting up BETTER numbers despite being 5 1/2 years younger.

I just don't think Joey doesn't always get the respect he has earned. He's tossed into trade discussions here as if he's not a blue-chip shortstop who has OPS'd near 1.000 for a year now at AAA and regarded as a top-35 prospect by multiple reputable outlets.

You can honestly argue he's the greatest draft pick by this front office. All of the other guys in the conversation were top-tier talents who were either drafted very early on or given big bonuses. Joey was drafted in the fourth round and signed below slot. There really aren't a ton of guys like that who end up blossoming like this.

Holliday is in a league of his own. Or maybe a league with Jackson Chourio and Junior Caminero. But for the record, I think until last night when Holliday went off, Joey's AAA-only OPS on the year was higher than Jackson's collective A+/AA numbers. The point is just that Joey has been mashing every bit as much as all of the other guys in the system if not more in addition to being a better defender than all of them.

[connja]

I think Krjstad's game is most evolved and ready to contribute right now.  

[banks703]

1 hour ago, Bemorewins said:

It appears that you really love Ortiz. I don’t fault you for that preference. 

But I have one point of disagreement. I don’t think it can be said/argued that Ortiz has outperformed Holliday offensively this year. 

Joey Ortiz is in his prime at age 25 putting up impressive numbers at AAA. While Jackson Holliday who is still a teenager is already putting up BETTER numbers despite being 5 1/2 years younger.

I don’t recall a single poster making any argument for Joey’s offensive ability over that of Holliday’s. If they did, I missed it. The argument that has been beaten to death is that Ortiz is the far superior defender, which he is and it’s not even close. Can Holliday close the gap with more experience? Sure but Gunnar is only 2.5 years older than Holliday’s and is light years ahead of him on the defensive side of the ball. At 19 Gunnar was quite a bit further along than Holliday is right now…on D. 

Can Holliday close the gap? Sure. Will he? I don’t see him developing the physical tools that will push him past Gunnar as a SS. Does that mean that the org won’t move Gunnar? Absolutely not. They will if they think that they’d be fielding the best team.

Jackson Holliday can get out of bed and hit ML pitching. Offensively he is special. He’s just not as gifted on the defensive side of the ball, which is perfectly fine when the org has rookies in Gunnar, Joey and  Westburg already in the system. 

[Bemorewins]

19 minutes ago, banks703 said:

I don’t recall a single poster making any argument for Joey’s offensive ability over that of Holliday’s. If they did, I missed it. The argument that has been beaten to death is that Ortiz is the far superior defender, which he is and it’s not even close. Can Holliday close the gap with more experience? Sure but Gunnar is only 2.5 years older than Holliday’s and is light years ahead of him on the defensive side of the ball. At 19 Gunnar was quite a bit further along than Holliday is right now…on D. 

Can Holliday close the gap? Sure. Will he? I don’t see him developing the physical tools that will push him past Gunnar as a SS. Does that mean that the org won’t move Gunnar? Absolutely not. They will if they think that they’d be fielding the best team.

Jackson Holliday can get out of bed and hit ML pitching. Offensively he is special. He’s just not as gifted on the defensive side of the ball, which is perfectly fine when the org has rookies in Gunnar, Joey and  Westburg already in the system. 

When I read @Alasdaire post that said the following “despite how well all of those guys are doing themselves, Ortiz is arguably outperforming all of them at the plate” I interpreted that to mean that a comparison was being made regarding Joey Ortiz’s ability/aged 25 season at AAA and making it more favorable than Jackson Holliday’s aged 19 first professional season.

It sounded to me like “outperforming” used to mean better. Maybe you read that differently which is fine.

IMO Holliday doesn’t need to play SS, Gunnar is absolutely fine there and should not be moved. He is the best combination of offense and defense for SS in the entire org. IMO that gives you the most value.

If Holliday has to play 2B (while Gunnar is over at SS) we will probably get the most value from him at that position. IMO that would be of the kind and class of talent (with our middle infield) which would/could rival Texas (which IMO is currently best in the league).

Again, my opinion/evaluation of players is influenced by the total value they bring (offensive and defensive) not just one side of the ball.

Gunnar Henderson and Jackson are probably our most talented players. IMO you pencil them into a spot as everyday foundational pieces and then staff out from there. 

Even though some of our other young players/prospects are immensely talented themselves, they are not on the level of those 2. Thus their placement is not as critical/important to me.

[Alasdaire]

2 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

When I read @Alasdaire post that said the following “despite how well all of those guys are doing themselves, Ortiz is arguably outperforming all of them at the plate” I interpreted that to mean that a comparison was being made regarding Joey Ortiz’s ability/aged 25 season at AAA and making it more favorable than Jackson Holliday’s aged 19 first professional season.

It sounded to me like “outperforming” used to mean better. Maybe you read that differently which is fine.

IMO Holliday doesn’t need to play SS, Gunnar is absolutely fine there and should not be moved. He is the best combination of offense and defense for SS in the entire org. IMO that gives you the most value.

If Holliday has to play 2B (while Gunnar is over at SS) we will probably get the most value from him at that position. IMO that would be of the kind and class of talent (with our middle infield) which would/could rival Texas (which IMO is currently best in the league).

Again, my opinion/evaluation of players is influenced by the total value they bring (offensive and defensive) not just one side of the ball.

Gunnar Henderson and Jackson are probably our most talented players. IMO you pencil them into a spot as everyday foundational pieces and then staff out from there. 

Even though some of our other young players/prospects are immensely talented themselves, they are not on the level of those 2. Thus their placement is not as critical/important to me.

By outperform I was referring to production. Joey's AAA OPS was the highest in the organization until Jackson put on a show last night. Ortiz also has a lower k% than Jackson.

You won't find anyone in the Jackson Holliday thread raving about him more than me. I'm just trying to put what Joey is doing in context. He would be the best prospect for a number of organizations.

[emmett16]

25 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

When I read @Alasdaire post that said the following “despite how well all of those guys are doing themselves, Ortiz is arguably outperforming all of them at the plate” I interpreted that to mean that a comparison was being made regarding Joey Ortiz’s ability/aged 25 season at AAA and making it more favorable than Jackson Holliday’s aged 19 first professional season.

It sounded to me like “outperforming” used to mean better. Maybe you read that differently which is fine.

IMO Holliday doesn’t need to play SS, Gunnar is absolutely fine there and should not be moved. He is the best combination of offense and defense for SS in the entire org. IMO that gives you the most value.

If Holliday has to play 2B (while Gunnar is over at SS) we will probably get the most value from him at that position. IMO that would be of the kind and class of talent (with our middle infield) which would/could rival Texas (which IMO is currently best in the league).

Again, my opinion/evaluation of players is influenced by the total value they bring (offensive and defensive) not just one side of the ball.

Gunnar Henderson and Jackson are probably our most talented players. IMO you pencil them into a spot as everyday foundational pieces and then staff out from there. 

Even though some of our other young players/prospects are immensely talented themselves, they are not on the level of those 2. Thus their placement is not as critical/important to me.

Ortiz is out hitting Holiday by .010 points in a more difficult league.  You could make an argument that Ortiz is outperforming Holiday this year all things considered.  And that doesn’t diminish a thing that JH has done.  

[Bemorewins]

1 hour ago, Alasdaire said:

By outperform I was referring to production. Joey's AAA OPS was the highest in the organization until Jackson put on a show last night. Ortiz also has a lower k% than Jackson.

You won't find anyone in the Jackson Holliday thread raving about him more than me. I'm just trying to put what Joey is doing in context. He would be the best prospect for a number of organizations.

Gotcha, I appreciate the explanation. I totally agree with your last statement/assessment. 

[Bemorewins]

1 hour ago, emmett16 said:

Ortiz is out hitting Holiday by .010 points in a more difficult league.  You could make an argument that Ortiz is outperforming Holiday this year all things considered.  And that doesn’t diminish a thing that JH has done.  

This is not to take anything away from the fine minor league season that Ortiz is having or from the prospect that he is in general, but if you are more impressed by anything Ortiz is doing this year in a prime season at age 25 as opposed to Holliday as a teenage in first full year as a pro, then you are in the extreme minor. Like either the president of the Ortiz fan club, a blood relative, or a personal friend.

When Jackson Holliday turns 25 or let’s be honest 21, he won’t be facing minor league competition.