Roster implications for trading Ortiz

[scarey1999]

1 minute ago, Roy Firestone said:

I know for a fact that they told Coby Mayo to NOT be disappointed if he doesnt make the opening day roster this year...but that was BEFORE they traded Joey.

Roy, outside of you, you won’t find a bigger Mayo fan than I. 

Of course I’d love to see him head north with the team, but I think they will want him to continue to work on his improving defense at Norfolk. 

[ChuckS]

1 minute ago, dystopia said:

Well yes, I should have said one of Ortiz/Westburg had to go. There were some rumors that the O's valued Westburg more than Ortiz though. Seems that may have been true.

Or more likely, the Brewers wanted a potential major league shortstop rather than a guy who is going to play mostly 2B/3B.

Anyway, your original point was that Ortiz had no place on this team and you were quick to dismiss my OP. There are multiple scenarios that could have played out where Ortiz could have figured in here as a regular player. The roster was never written in stone and his loss does open up opportunities for others. 

[Ripken]

12 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

Or Westburg could have been dealt. The Brewers could have demanded Westburg instead of Ortiz. 

It’s easy to make statements like that after they happen, as if it was always inevitable.  Nothing is inevitable. There’s always multiple paths. 

All true, and you weren't replying to me but... I have this sneaking suspicion that Elias loves Westburg.  Like, really, really wants him here because he believes Jordan is not only a good contributor but a leader.  Someone along the lines of JJ Hardy.  

Edited February 2 by Ripken

[eddie83]

4 man bench 

McCann lock 

 

It’s possible neither of Mayo/Holliday will be here OD but I would be shocked if both are. Also possible neither Kjerstad/Cowser will be here OD but same thing, no way will both be. 
 

 

Mateo 

Urias 

OF ?? Hilliard?  One of Cowser/Kjerstad  

 

Elias showed us he likes keeping depth around as long as possible. O’Hearn is not a lock being here all next year. For that matter neither are Mateo/ Urias. I would expect we see Mateo working a lot in OF in spring training. 
 

[mrbig1]

Don't know how I feel about this trade.

[Sports Guy]

16 minutes ago, banks703 said:

With Gunnar you have above average, borderline elite defense and very good range, even for a bigger kid. This affords them some capacity to allow Mayo to play his way off of third base. I realize that he’s a big kid but it’s not like he’s Pablo Sandoval at 300 lbs over there. He’s big as in he’s 6’5 and built like a Tight End. He’s athletic and has a cannon. He’s lateral movement/quickness and footwork is the question. Personally I think he’s more likely to stick at 3B than Holliday is likely to stick as a SS.

You overrate Gunnar’s SS defense, underrate Holliday’s chances of improvement and seemingly completely overlook the idea that Gunnar is likely to be a GG level third baseman and no one else will touch him in the org over there. 
 

Again, Holliday doesn’t have to be the best defensive SS to be the starting SS. The alignment that they choose has to be the best.

Gunnar at third and Holliday at SS could easily be the best combo even if Holliday isn’t better at SS than Gunnar (which remains to be seen as Holliday gets stronger and works on his arm strength).

[Birdland in NC]

Cal was pretty adament last season that they should just leave Gunner at SS.  Now that he's got a seat in the Warehouse it will be interesting to see if that happens. 

[TheWall]

32 minutes ago, mrbig1 said:

Don't know how I feel about this trade.

Did you not want an Ace? 

[TheWall]

2 minutes ago, Birdland in NC said:

Cal was pretty adament last season that they should just leave Gunner at SS.  Now that he's got a seat in the Warehouse it will be interesting to see if that happens. 

Cal will not be making personnel decisions. 

[DirtyBird]

35 minutes ago, mrbig1 said:

Don't know how I feel about this trade.

That’s how fair trades feel.

[banks703]

11 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

You overrate Gunnar’s SS defense, underrate Holliday’s chances of improvement and seemingly completely overlook the idea that Gunnar is likely to be a GG level third baseman and no one else will touch him in the org over there. 
 

Again, Holliday doesn’t have to be the best defensive SS to be the starting SS. The alignment that they choose has to be the best.

Gunnar at third and Holliday at SS could easily be the best combo even if Holliday isn’t better at SS than Gunnar (which remains to be seen as Holliday gets stronger and works on his arm strength).

I don’t overrate Gunnar’s defense at SS. Joey was the best defensive shortstop in the org. I stand by that. Tony has stated that as often as me if not more often. Gunnar closed the gap between the two of them with his improved consistency in 23. That was the big knock on whether he could stick at SS, more so than the idea that he would outgrow the position. Gunnar was elite at SS while bouncing back and forth between SS and third. I think the org is going into 24 with the intention of him playing 90% or more of his defensive innings at one position, which will be SS. 

To your point about no one in the org touching him at third… guess what? no one is touching him at SS. 

Holliday’s limitations as a SS go beyond the lack of arm strength. There’s lots of reporting on this. I’m not the only person who sees it. He’s not rangy. His instincts and timing are poor and cause him to get caught on the in-between hops a lot. His hips are extremely stiff and his footwork is VERY bad and he has trouble squaring his body when throwing on plays that he has to charge in to make. However he does throw surprisingly accurately when moving to his left. Yes he’s only 20. Yes he will improve. Yes the O’s could just decide to stick him there and move Gunnar to third. But they aren’t going to do that. If the choice is between having Gunnar’s elite D at third with a significant drop of defense at SS with Holliday, or Gunnar’s elite D at SS with a lesser drop in D from Mayo at third, they’re going with Mayo at third and Gunnar at SS.

[Birdland in NC]

6 minutes ago, TheWall said:

Cal will not be making personnel decisions. 

Nobody is going to listen to part owner Cal Ripken Jr regarding the Orioles shortstop position. Got it. 

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, banks703 said:

I don’t overrate Gunnar’s defense at SS. Joey was the best defensive shortstop in the org. I stand by that. Tony has stated that as often as me if not more often. Gunnar closed the gap between the two of them with his improved consistency in 23. That was the big knock on whether he could stick at SS, more so than the idea that he would outgrow the position. Gunnar was elite at SS while bouncing back and forth between SS and third. I think the org is going into 24 with the intention of him playing 90% or more of his defensive innings at one position, which will be SS. 

To your point about no one in the org touching him at third… guess what? no one is touching him at SS. 

Holliday’s limitations as a SS go beyond the lack of arm strength. There’s lots of reporting on this. I’m not the only person who sees it. He’s not rangy. His instincts and timing are poor and cause him to get caught on the in-between hops a lot. His hips are extremely stiff and his footwork is VERY bad and he has trouble squaring his body when throwing on plays that he has to charge in to make. However he does throw surprisingly accurately when moving to his left. Yes he’s only 20. Yes he will improve. Yes the O’s could just decide to stick him there and move Gunnar to third. But they aren’t going to do that. If the choice is between having Gunnar’s elite D at third with a significant drop of defense at SS with Holliday, or Gunnar’s elite D at SS with a lesser drop in D from Mayo at third, they’re going with Mayo at third and Gunnar at SS.

You like to quote Tony a lot. Tony believes Holliday will end up the SS and Gunnar at third.

I think you are completely way off on your assessment. With that I mean, I’m not saying you are wrong that he has limitations but your lack of understanding or belief that he can’t greatly improve upon it is astonishingly wrong.

Now, if he gets lazy or chooses not to work on his defense than maybe you end up being right. I think if you believe that though, you (not saying you you, just a general you) are a fool. 

[TheWall]

3 minutes ago, Birdland in NC said:

Nobody is going to listen to part owner Cal Ripken Jr regarding the Orioles shortstop position. Got it. 

You honestly think a largely symbolic ownership share is going to give Cal the right to tell Elias and Hyde how to deploy their roster? Insanity. 

Gunnar is likely going to be close to full time at SS, but that has absolutely nothing to do with Cal. 

Edited February 2 by TheWall

[RZNJ]

4 minutes ago, banks703 said:

I don’t overrate Gunnar’s defense at SS. Joey was the best defensive shortstop in the org. I stand by that. Tony has stated that as often as me if not more often. Gunnar closed the gap between the two of them with his improved consistency in 23. That was the big knock on whether he could stick at SS, more so than the idea that he would outgrow the position. Gunnar was elite at SS while bouncing back and forth between SS and third. I think the org is going into 24 with the intention of him playing 90% or more of his defensive innings at one position, which will be SS. 

To your point about no one in the org touching him at third… guess what? no one is touching him at SS. 

Holliday’s limitations as a SS go beyond the lack of arm strength. There’s lots of reporting on this. I’m not the only person who sees it. He’s not rangy. His instincts and timing are poor and cause him to get caught on the in-between hops a lot. His hips are extremely stiff and his footwork is VERY bad and he has trouble squaring his body when throwing on plays that he has to charge in to make. However he does throw surprisingly accurately when moving to his left. Yes he’s only 20. Yes he will improve. Yes the O’s could just decide to stick him there and move Gunnar to third. But they aren’t going to do that. If the choice is between having Gunnar’s elite D at third with a significant drop of defense at SS with Holliday, or Gunnar’s elite D at SS with a lesser drop in D from Mayo at third, they’re going with Mayo at third and Gunnar at SS.

I agree that Henderson is likely the SS moving forward and that he was easily a plus SS last year.  You sound like you’ve seen Holliday at SS extensively and I appreciate your insights.  However, I haven’t read one scouting report that is even half as critical as you are about his defense.  The worst I’ve seen is that he’ll be average there but I’ve also seen some that say plus.  I haven’t seen one like yours.  Just saying.