How far do you go to try to save this?

[Just Regular]

10 minutes ago, Allan Bryant said:

Yes other teams can and will copycat our team’s strategy. They also likely will poach and promote our staff employees ( as you mentioned ) .

But my question for you is………is Elias and Sig the guys that strive to evolve and adapt their own team developments ?  So the Orioles can stay ahead of the curve 

Some of what I think is unique about the position this decade is this CBA they literally changed the rules so no one can do what Elias did.

It is a year ending in "4" so it might be time again for Toronto to tamper with the Orioles general manager.

[24fps]

40 minutes ago, oriolediehard said:

We should have signed Sonny Gray this off season,  then we wouldn't have to trade prospects for him!

John Angelos was the majority partner until one day before the season opened.  There was no money available and, more importantly, no willingness to take on a multi-year contract when Sonny Gray was on the market.

[Bemorewins]

8 minutes ago, Allan Bryant said:

Yes other teams can and will copycat our team’s strategy. They also likely will poach and promote our staff employees ( as you mentioned ) .

But my question for you is………is Elias and Sig the guys that strive to evolve and adapt their own team developments ?  So the Orioles can stay ahead of the curve 

The issue is not if Elias/Sig are great at drafting, talent developing, or utilizing data science to improve performance; the most obviously are.

I see two critical questions that need to be answered: 1) What type of meaningful support will Rubenstien provide for Elias? (I know some just want an owner to stay out of the way. And continue to adhere to “budget ball” principles. But I am concerned that will not be enough. Great orgs/companies most often have great leadership flowing from the top.)

2) Can Elias/Sig continue to adapt their processes and methodologies given the change in competitive reality/expectations? And can they continue to find new ways to exploit market m/industry inequitIes?

[Aristotelian]

19 minutes ago, waroriole said:

If Gray is the right guy, why not just sign him 6 months ago? Giving up Kjerstad for that is insane. 

I wish we had. He was my top guy. It's possible we would have if Peter had just died a few months earlier. Why is Kjerstad insane? Because of Gray's contract? 

[casadeozo]

10 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

The issue is not if Elias/Sig are great at drafting, talent developing, or utilizing data science to improve performance; the most obviously are.

I see two critical questions that need to be answered: 1) What type of meaningful support will Rubenstien provide for Elias? (I know some just want an owner to stay out of the way. And continue to adhere to “budget ball” principles. But I am concerned that will not be enough. Great orgs/companies most often have great leadership flowing from the top.)

2) Can Elias/Sig continue to adapt their processes and methodologies given the change in competitive reality/expectations? And can they continue to find new ways to exploit market m/industry inequitIes?

Genuinely curious, who are these organizations with great ownership flowing from the top?
the successful organizations are the ones who you don’t know who the owner is (ATL/LAD etc)

[Bemorewins]

2 minutes ago, casadeozo said:

Genuinely curious, who are these organizations with great ownership flowing from the top?
the successful organizations are the ones who you don’t know who the owner is (ATL/LAD etc)

Umm…. just because you don’t know who the owner is doesn’t mean that they don’t provide leadership.

When Mark Walter (who is the lead investor of the group that purchased the Dodgers in 2012 after McCourt’s divorce) it has made all the difference for them! They were never a top payroll team prior to the Guggenheim management group purchasing their team. Not only do they have a top payroll (actually #7 this season) they have a terrific analytics/performance data department and wonderful player development under Andrew Friedman (who came from TB).

Do I need to go on and explain the Braves to you or do you get my point?

[casadeozo]

12 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

Umm…. just because you don’t know who the owner is doesn’t mean that they don’t provide leadership.

When Mark Walter (who is the lead investor of the group that purchased the Dodgers in 2012 after McCourt’s divorce) it has made all the difference for them! They were never a top payroll team prior to the Guggenheim management group purchasing their team. Not only do they have a top payroll (actually #7 this season) they have a terrific analytics/performance data department and wonderful player development under Andrew Friedman (who came from TB).

Do I need to go on and explain the Braves to you or do you get my point?

You sort of proved my point. 
no one knows who Mark Walter is or was viewed as a savior. LA is a much larger market and they can spend a lot more while still being a top front office in MLB. What Anthopolous has done in Atlanta has been discussed ad nauseum.
My point is ownership matters in decision making, but the more involved owners are the ones we’d prefer to not emulate (HOU/BOS ETC)

[Philip]

1 hour ago, oriolediehard said:

We should have signed Sonny Gray this off season,  then we wouldn't have to trade prospects for him!

You see perfectly when you look behind you. I would’ve been reluctant to sign an old veteran, but Sunny has been pretty outstanding.

[Bemorewins]

9 minutes ago, casadeozo said:

You sort of proved my point. 
no one knows who Mark Walter is or was viewed as a savior. LA is a much larger market and they can spend a lot more while still being a top front office in MLB. What Anthopolous has done in Atlanta has been discussed ad nauseum.
My point is ownership matters in decision making, but the more involved owners are the ones we’d prefer to not emulate (HOU/BOS ETC)

So I guess I didn’t do a good enough job explaining my point?

Most owners (save for your Jerry Jones, George Steinbrenner few exception types) do not want to be the face of the franchise or out in the public eye because that comes with a lot of scrutiny.

HOWEVER BEHIND THE SCENES you better believe that they are the ones who set the tone for the ENTIRE org (for good or bad). 

You are talking about “market size” when I just told you that the Dodgers never were this type of spending team traditionally with the same type of market. The owner is the one who decides what to spend and what kind of financial risk the org will live with not the market size. Why do you think that the Padres spent like they did when they were a traditional “small market”? Why did the Tigers spend so much (had one of the top payrolls) toward the end of Ilitch’s life? … Hint, they chose to spend.

Also, as it relates to the Braves Anthopolous follows the directive of the owner of the team. He is not even the president of the team. The real difference happened when Liberty acquired the team from Time Warner and built that complex that they have down their now including the stadium.

Boston has won 4 championships under Henry. And let’s not even talk about the tremendous success that HOU (who never won anything previous) has had under Crane.

[SemperFi]

58 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

I wish we had. He was my top guy. It's possible we would have if Peter had just died a few months earlier. Why is Kjerstad insane? Because of Gray's contract? 

The contract is somewhat onerous the next two years at 2/$65 plus a $5m option and you would need to buyout the no trade clause.  I like Sonny Gray but that's a lot of money that you can't do other things with.  It also exposes you to significant risk if he is injured.  IMO the Orioles would be better served to hedge their bets by acquiring 2 $18m pitchers rather than Sonny Gray.

[casadeozo]

6 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

So I guess I didn’t do a good enough job explaining my point?

Most owners (save for your Jerry Jones, George Steinbrenner few exception types) do not want to be the face of the franchise or out in the public eye because that comes with a lot of scrutiny.

HOWEVER BEHIND THE SCENES you better believe that they are the ones who set the tone for the ENTIRE org (for good or bad). 

You are talking about “market size” when I just told you that the Dodgers never were this type of spending team traditionally with the same type of market. The owner is the one who decides what to spend and what kind of financial risk the org will live with not the market size. Why do you think that the Padres spent like they did when they were a traditional “small market”? Why did the Tigers spend so much (had one of the top payrolls) toward the end of Ilitch’s life? … Hint, they chose to spend.

Also, as it relates to the Braves Anthopolous follows the directive of the owner of the team. He is not even the president of the team. The real difference happened when Liberty acquired the team from Time Warner and built that complex that they have down their now including the stadium.

Boston has won 4 championships under Henry. And let’s not even talk about the tremendous success that HOU (who never won anything previous) has had under Crane.

Read Astroball if you really think Crane is the reason for the Astros success. Both teams success was driven by letting the baseball people do their jobs, and the recent failures were when they started getting  more involved.

[O's84]

  

10 hours ago, Uli2001 said:

Pitchers are throwing way too hard now.

 

4 hours ago, Bemorewins said:

Pitching injuries are happening to a crazy degree all over the sport. We still have our #1 starter who is the best starter that we have had in decades and a very talented #2/3. All is not lost.

I know pitching injuries are up.  But how many teams have lost an ace closer, a #1 starter, #3, and a high leverage guy?  That was what I was alluding to, it's that they are all key injuries and that they are all going to be sidelined for a long time.  As for Danny, he'll be back but will he back in time for the stretch run? Let's hope because we need all the late inning help we can get.

And just for the record I never said that all is lost.  But Elias will have to get some key pieces at the deadline if we want a shot at a WS.

[btdart20]

1 hour ago, Bemorewins said:

The issue is not if Elias/Sig are great at drafting, talent developing, or utilizing data science to improve performance; the most obviously are.

I see two critical questions that need to be answered: 1) What type of meaningful support will Rubenstien provide for Elias? (I know some just want an owner to stay out of the way. And continue to adhere to “budget ball” principles. But I am concerned that will not be enough. Great orgs/companies most often have great leadership flowing from the top.)

2) Can Elias/Sig continue to adapt their processes and methodologies given the change in competitive reality/expectations? And can they continue to find new ways to exploit market m/industry inequitIes?

This is fair. 

And I'll add a nuance to the drafting/scouting bit:  the ability to ID who to keep (including extending) and who the not (trade or let walk) will be tested heading into the trade deadline and beyond. 

[casadeozo]

53 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

Umm…. just because you don’t know who the owner is doesn’t mean that they don’t provide leadership.

When Mark Walter (who is the lead investor of the group that purchased the Dodgers in 2012 after McCourt’s divorce) it has made all the difference for them! They were never a top payroll team prior to the Guggenheim management group purchasing their team. Not only do they have a top payroll (actually #7 this season) they have a terrific analytics/performance data department and wonderful player development under Andrew Friedman (who came from TB).

Do I need to go on and explain the Braves to you or do you get my point?

The dodger were also in the top half of league payroll every year for the ten years leading up there ale often in the top 7-10 teams. So that’s also not accurate 

[Malike]

This is a really hard question. I get the argument that we have Burnes for 1 season and I believe that if everyone had stayed healthy this team really was 2 good bullpen pieces from being a favorite in the WS. With the rotation basically coming down to Burnes and Rodriguez and the mixed bag of everyone else, and the pen issues on top of it, I'm not sure how smart it would be to panic and throw all the prospects away to try to fix it.

Half of me thinks they should bring Mayo, Norby, and Kjerstad up and just let them play out the string so they get valuable experience and we have a better picture of who they are against MLB pitching and see where the chips fall with the rotation and the pen.