John Smoltz on why pitchers are "breaking" and what we should do about it..

[LookitsPuck]

18 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I don't deny that year round workouts could be part of the problem.  

But I really don't see how this goes anywhere else other than to stay where it is.  Yeah, there's an outcry because pitchers are having Tommy John surgeries at an extreme rate but what's going to change?  Guys are going to stop going for max effort and max velocity?  Who doesn't want to add 3-5 mph?

 

I think the main takeaway is nothing is going to change. 

[drjohnnyfever1]

What would be more telling is a stat on HS-age pitcher injuries across say the 16-19yr old age group.  But how one would compile such a thing seems impossible.  My point tho is, that with harder throwing and greater spin rates, it can't be a good thing on growing and developing arms.  Particularly taking into account some of the coaching that goes on at these levels.

For a good part of the 70's the O's had a 4 man rotation with guys starting 30+games with another couple spot starters getting the leftovers.  I think too much rest could be the culprit too.  Those staffs, in addition to only being 4 guys, they threw a lot of complete games.

I also remember a guy - an MLB pitcher of the 70's-80's who blew his arm out and rehabbed by throwing weighted and steel, shot-put-like balls... his name escapes me, but I remember watching some of his videos on YouTube 15-20 years ago.  Sounded kind of snake-oil-ish to me, but he had his devotees.  He made a lot of claims about strengthening the shoulder and elbow with weighted ball throwing...

 

[OnlyOneOriole]

20 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I don't deny that year round workouts could be part of the problem.  

But I really don't see how this goes anywhere else other than to stay where it is.  Yeah, there's an outcry because pitchers are having Tommy John surgeries at an extreme rate but what's going to change?  Guys are going to stop going for max effort and max velocity?  Who doesn't want to add 3-5 mph?

 

Yeah if I am a pitcher and I can get another 4 MPH with higher revs by doing things with my arm/elbow to achieve that?  For the amount of money that a good pitcher can  get I am doing that all day every day.   And if I have to have TJ?  So be it.  I will sit out a year, still get paid, and pitch the same way when I come back.  I can't blame the pitchers.  

I just think baseball needs to climb out of the dark ages and let them use something to achieve the proper grip that a pitcher needs for max velocity and revs without having to squeeze the ball or torque the elbow so much. 

[OnlyOneOriole]

3 minutes ago, drjohnnyfever1 said:

What would be more telling is a stat on HS-age pitcher injuries across say the 16-19yr old age group.  But how one would compile such a thing seems impossible.  My point tho is, that with harder throwing and greater spin rates, it can't be a good thing on growing and developing arms.  Particularly taking into account some of the coaching that goes on at these levels.

For a good part of the 70's the O's had a 4 man rotation with guys starting 30+games with another couple spot starters getting the leftovers.  I think too much rest could be the culprit too.  Those staffs, in addition to only being 4 guys, they threw a lot of complete games.

I also remember a guy - an MLB pitcher of the 70's-80's who blew his arm out and rehabbed by throwing weighted and steel, shot-put-like balls... his name escapes me, but I remember watching some of his videos on YouTube 15-20 years ago.  Sounded kind of snake-oil-ish to me, but he had his devotees.  He made a lot of claims about strengthening the shoulder and elbow with weighted ball throwing...

 

Those are all good points.  I remember when I was a kid most HS pitchers just threw straight fastballs with the occasional change up and curveball.

Now?  They are all throwing for max spin.

[ThomasTomasz]

4 hours ago, Tryptamine said:

We're getting closer and closer to the point that pitchers are becoming like the running backs of the NFL. Use them up while they're cheap and only the elite of the elite are going to get big 2nd contracts. 

We’re going to be in a series of ‘openers’ where guys pitch 2-3 innings per appearance, spaced out between a couple games.  

[drjohnnyfever1]

1 hour ago, drjohnnyfever1 said:

What would be more telling is a stat on HS-age pitcher injuries across say the 16-19yr old age group.  But how one would compile such a thing seems impossible.  My point tho is, that with harder throwing and greater spin rates, it can't be a good thing on growing and developing arms.  Particularly taking into account some of the coaching that goes on at these levels.

For a good part of the 70's the O's had a 4 man rotation with guys starting 30+games with another couple spot starters getting the leftovers.  I think too much rest could be the culprit too.  Those staffs, in addition to only being 4 guys, they threw a lot of complete games.

I also remember a guy - an MLB pitcher of the 70's-80's who blew his arm out and rehabbed by throwing weighted and steel, shot-put-like balls... his name escapes me, but I remember watching some of his videos on YouTube 15-20 years ago.  Sounded kind of snake-oil-ish to me, but he had his devotees.  He made a lot of claims about strengthening the shoulder and elbow with weighted ball throwing...

 

Mike Marshall is the guy I was thinking of.  He advocated training with weighted balls and no inverted W in the pitching motion.  Very interesting, but looks a little awkward.  But as a kid, who saw guys doing the screwball - and Marshall was a screwball pitcher, when my arm hurt, I threw the screwball for relief... twisting the throwing hand in at/near release.  Anyway, this is not a pony league discussion.  Mike Marshall's the guy.

https://www.youtube.com/@drmikemars

[justD]

2 hours ago, Tryptamine said:

I think it was Dr. James Andrews who spoke on TJS a few years ago and how alarmed he was at the number of highschool kids who were getting it and even worse that kids who didn't need it wanted it just to get it out of the way and because they thought it would add velocity. 

This.  I was hoping to find stats about high-school-age and college-age players getting the surgery, but here's a couple of excerpts from one of the articles from 2023:

Quote

“The number one group is youth baseball having more surgeries, more than the professionals,” said Andrews, who is based in Gulf Breeze in the Florida Panhandle. “Because of this trend we’re seeing, we're trying to figure out how to prevent these youth injuries and keep these kids out of the operating room.”

 

...the procedure has exploded in popularity among amateur and aspiring pitchers, many in high school or college and some as young as 10. According to a public dataset, the number of Tommy John surgeries performed on those under 21 in the United States was fewer than 10 from the surgery’s invention up until 2003. By 2017, at least 80 were being performed on that same age group per year.

https://www.palmbeachpost.com/story/sports/high-school/baseball/2023/05/12/tommy-john-surgery-more-prevalent-among-youth-pitchers-than-professionals/70178486007/

[emmett16]

26 minutes ago, drjohnnyfever1 said:

Mike Marshall is the guy I was thinking of.  He advocated training with weighted balls and no inverted W in the pitching motion.  Very interesting, but looks a little awkward.  But as a kid, who saw guys doing the screwball - and Marshall was a screwball pitcher, when my arm hurt, I threw the screwball for relief... twisting the throwing hand in at/near release.  Anyway, this is not a pony league discussion.  Mike Marshall's the guy.

https://www.youtube.com/@drmikemars

He was a major influencer of Kyle Boddy and his Driveline training techniques.  The use of heavy balls & wrist weights to train decelerators and retrain pronating motions.  He was definitely a pioneer and like a lot of folks in baseball who speak against the masses what essentially blacklisted and outcast. 

The Strom List: Dr. Mike Marshall - The Crawfish Boxes

Reviewing ASMI's Biomechanical Analysis of Dr. Marshall's Pitchers (Focus: Performance/Velocity) - Driveline Baseball

[drjohnnyfever1]

36 minutes ago, emmett16 said:

He was a major influencer of Kyle Boddy and his Driveline training techniques.  The use of heavy balls & wrist weights to train decelerators and retrain pronating motions.  He was definitely a pioneer and like a lot of folks in baseball who speak against the masses what essentially blacklisted and outcast. 

The Strom List: Dr. Mike Marshall - The Crawfish Boxes

Reviewing ASMI's Biomechanical Analysis of Dr. Marshall's Pitchers (Focus: Performance/Velocity) - Driveline Baseball

Excellent, sir.  Thanks for this.  I read about him 15 or so years ago.  I think it's the screwball that got me pursuing information about elbow injuries.  But as I read and watched his videos, I began to understand the reason I wasn't having pain from throwing the screwball as a kid was because I had to position my arm and adjust my normal delivery to do it.  It was poor mechanics on curveballs and sidearming them and trying to max spin them that likely hurt me at a tender age, despite being admonished not to do it yet wanting to do what the pros do.

Anyway, square-peg guy here.  Unabashedly so.  I love the guys that tell everyone they're thinking in the wrong direction or too "established."  John Sarno comes to mind when it comes to back pain.

Thanks for posting those.  I was shocked - in a good way - at the number of trainers using weighted balls in rehab and strength development nowadays.  That was almost nonexistent when I first read about him, but it seems like it's now almost a standard practice.  Thanks again!

[Safelykept]

4 hours ago, accinfo said:

Wow that is shocking to me.  I would have never guessed they have actually decreased.  

Maybe weve been unlucky this year. I've followed the O's since there was TJS surgery (early 70's) I dont ever remember having 4 pitchers lost for the season or rehabbing at the same time. And here I thought it was par for course. seems like Tampa and Miami just off the top of my head go through a lot.

[eddie83]

4 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

I don't deny that year round workouts could be part of the problem.  

But I really don't see how this goes anywhere else other than to stay where it is.  Yeah, there's an outcry because pitchers are having Tommy John surgeries at an extreme rate but what's going to change?  Guys are going to stop going for max effort and max velocity?  Who doesn't want to add 3-5 mph?

 

Nothing is going to change. 

[Three Run Homer]

4 hours ago, OnlyOneOriole said:

To me it seems pretty obvious.   Pitchers are looking for more velocity and more revs/spin.    And they now have to do it without any substance that used to be able to help them achieve that spin without having to torque their arm and mainly their elbow to such a large degree.  It creates tremendous strain on a joint and surrounding tissue that was not made to do that.   Ever since they started cracking down on the sticky stuff, combined with the higher emphasis on revs?  Injuries have sky rocketed.  

 

Which is why I am in favor of allowing certain substances to be used by pitchers as long as the substance does not interfere with the flight of the ball after it has been hit.  In other words it can't be glooped all over the ball.  Just a light substance a pitcher can rub on their hands to get a better feel.  A baseball has stitches that allows for some grip for certain pitches but many pitches the fingers are only on the smooth part. 

But in many many other sports, a player is allowed to used substances on their hands to allow them a better grip or feel.  Tennis.  Bowling.  Handball.   Even basketball to a degree.    Football used to (remember stick um?) but that was outlawed but even now you can wear gloves that actually have better grip than any substance.

Allow the pitchers to use something for a better grip and I think you will see injuries subside quite a bit. 

I agree that they need to overturn the ban on sticky stuff.  If the concern is that offense will decline too much, shrink the strike zone.  

The question is--will sticky stuff just encourage pitchers to throw even harder?  Would it really lead to less stress on pitchers' arms?  

[OnlyOneOriole]

7 minutes ago, Three Run Homer said:

I agree that they need to overturn the ban on sticky stuff.  If the concern is that offense will decline too much, shrink the strike zone.  

The question is--will sticky stuff just encourage pitchers to throw even harder?  Would it really lead to less stress on pitchers' arms?  

IMO if MLB allows pitchers to get a better grip?  The need to try and throw harder is negated.  

[Can_of_corn]

4 minutes ago, OnlyOneOriole said:

IMO if MLB allows pitchers to get a better grip?  The need to try and throw harder is negated.  

They'd do both.

You won't see anyone going, well this 3.15 ERA is good enough, I won't try and throw harder and get it lower.  Not how elite athletes are wired.

[24fps]

6 hours ago, OnlyOneOriole said:

Yeah if I am a pitcher and I can get another 4 MPH with higher revs by doing things with my arm/elbow to achieve that?  For the amount of money that a good pitcher can  get I am doing that all day every day.   And if I have to have TJ?  So be it.  I will sit out a year, still get paid, and pitch the same way when I come back.  I can't blame the pitchers.  

I just think baseball needs to climb out of the dark ages and let them use something to achieve the proper grip that a pitcher needs for max velocity and revs without having to squeeze the ball or torque the elbow so much. 

Chicks (and your random fan) dig the long ball.  So do owners.  So especially do Commissioners.  Selling $200.00 plus family outings for 1-0 pitcher's duels is an uphill climb after the first time.