After Two Weeks of Pie...

[RShack]

I can't imagine a scenario where I'd want to have Pie DFA'd by the end of May

As I've said before, I think we need to give Pie a fresh start and pretend he's a rookie.

In Nick's rookie season, on May 28th he was hitting .209 with an OPS under .600.

[square634]

As I've said before, I think we need to give Pie a fresh start and pretend he's a rookie.

In Nick's rookie season, on May 28th he was hitting .209 with an OPS under .600.

Then again, to be fair, there were people - perhaps with sound reasoning - saying he should be demoted (though obviously not DFAed).

[RShack]

Then again, to be fair, there were people - perhaps with sound reasoning - saying he should be demoted (though obviously not DFAed).

I agree people were saying it. However just because some folks have an opinion, that doesn't mean it's a valid one. Some opinions are just flat-out wrong.

In the case of Nick, they obviously were wrong. By the end of May, it was obvious that Nick could do everything right except cope when they jammed him. It was a very specific thing. Anybody who couldn't see that wasn't paying attention. Whether Pie will display a similar profile of various strengths with just a specific weakness or two remains to be seen.

[Dipper9]

I agree people were saying it. However just because some folks have an opinion, that doesn't mean it's a valid one. Some opinions are just flat-out wrong.

In the case of Nick, they obviously were wrong. By the end of May, it was obvious that Nick could do everything right except cope when they jammed him. It was a very specific thing. Anybody who couldn't see that wasn't paying attention. Whether Pie will display a similar profile of various strengths with just a specific weakness or two remains to be seen.

Some people have the tools but do not have baseball instincts. That describes Felix Pie. The guy get bad jumps on balls, and seems overmatched at the plate. I won't go so far as to say he never makes a clean play, but I will say that every ball hit to him makes me hold my breath. I know not many agree with me, and think we need to give him another few months, but I am finished with this guy. Add Freel, Moeller, and Eaton to the list as well. I want to see those four guys gone in favor of Wieters, Reimold, Montanez, and Bergeson. Looks like on Tuesday, one of those four things will be coming to fruition! 3 to go.

Remember, we had another guy with all the tools but no baseball instincts...and CaBBrera is now pitching for the Nationals!

[Old#5fan]

Some people have the tools but do not have baseball instincts. That describes Felix Pie. The guy get bad jumps on balls, and seems overmatched at the plate. I won't go so far as to say he never makes a clean play, but I will say that every ball hit to him makes me hold my breath. I know not many agree with me, and think we need to give him another few months, but I am finished with this guy. Add Freel, Moeller, and Eaton to the list as well. I want to see those four guys gone in favor of Wieters, Reimold, Montanez, and Bergeson. Looks like on Tuesday, one of those four things will be coming to fruition! 3 to go.

Remember, we had another guy with all the tools but no baseball instincts...and CaBBrera is now pitching for the Nationals!

You could well be either a visionary or a baseball prophet as what you espouse could very well be the case.:clap3:

[amateurfan]

As I've said before, I think we need to give Pie a fresh start and pretend he's a rookie.

In Nick's rookie season, on May 28th he was hitting .209 with an OPS under .600.

Pie needs to show progression like Nick did. In April, Nick hit .182 with an OPS of .558. In May he hit .254 with an OPS .667. That's the type of progression I'm hoping for. I don't care what his cumulative is, I care if he's making steady progress.

Right now, my only concern is his K/AB ratio. He is striking out 1 out of every 3 AB. The last three were against two really tough pitchers, though (Beckett and Lester).

[bumblebee]

So far, the O's strategy seems to be give Pie a chance in LF and play Freel vs. lefties and/or when his complaining gets bothersome.

How about the "bracket" strategy to determine the long term O's left fielder? Round 1: Modify the '09 plan to make it a Pie vs. Montanez (instead of Pie vs. himself). Pie should play against righties, Montanez against all lefties and get some spot starts as DH and pinch hit. Get rid of Freel - he's unproductive and off-strategy.

Round 2: The '09 winner goes against Reimold in 2010.

[adamwolff11]

So far, the O's strategy seems to be give Pie a chance in LF and play Freel vs. lefties and/or when his complaining gets bothersome.

How about the "bracket" strategy to determine the long term O's left fielder? Round 1: Modify the '09 plan to make it a Pie vs. Montanez (instead of Pie vs. himself). Pie should play against righties, Montanez against all lefties and get some spot starts as DH and pinch hit. Get rid of Freel - he's unproductive and off-strategy.

Round 2: The '09 winner goes against Reimold in 2010.

Freel really shouldn't even play. He's unhappy with his role, but he has made absolutely no case for getting more playing time. Greg Zaun pinch hit for him..take a second to swallow that pill. A catcher who is not at all known for his offense and isn't hitting well on the young season pinch hit for him. The absolute only time I would want to see Ryan Freel over another player would be if he were pinch running late in a game, and I'm not sure if he's even been used in that role yet. I would much rather see Pie and Montanez splitting the ABs.

[RShack]

Some people have the tools but do not have baseball instincts. That describes Felix Pie. The guy get bad jumps on balls, and seems overmatched at the plate. I won't go so far as to say he never makes a clean play, but I will say that every ball hit to him makes me hold my breath. I know not many agree with me, and think we need to give him another few months, but I am finished with this guy. Add Freel, Moeller, and Eaton to the list as well. I want to see those four guys gone in favor of Wieters, Reimold, Montanez, and Bergeson. Looks like on Tuesday, one of those four things will be coming to fruition! 3 to go.

Remember, we had another guy with all the tools but no baseball instincts...and CaBBrera is now pitching for the Nationals!

Well, Dip, I don't know what to say. It's not like you to get so down on somebody after a measly few games.

You said some things I agree with, and some things I don't.

Here's what I agree with:

• I agree that being good at baseball requires baseball instincts, and you can't teach them.
• I agree that DCab doesn't have them, but nobody said he did. I also think CPat doesn't have them. With him, that wasn't apparent at first glance, but once you watch him for a while, you can tell. CPat is a good, fast athlete who just doesn't have good baseball instincts. To me, he's the opposite of BRob, who I think is an OK athlete (by ML standards) who has excellent baseball instincts.
• In the OF, Pie sure looks befuddled sometimes, which is way different than the story we got in advance.

I was expecting Pie to be a flash in the OF, perhaps with some initial funkiness due to the LF adjustment. I expected the befuddlement to show up at the plate. What I've seen is the exact opposite of what I expected. He looks better at the plate than I expected (instinct-wise, not finished-product-wise) and he looks way worse in the OF than I expected. I don't know if you agree with this, but for the moment let's pretend you do, OK?

The mystery is how to explain the diff between what we were led to believe about his supposedly great OF-D vs. what we're seeing with our very own eyeballs. To me, this is way more mysterious than DCab or CPat was. With DCab, nobody ever said he had good instincts, it was just that he could throw pitches that nobody could hit. With CPat, he looked pretty OK at first, but then you started noticing things, like he was always racing hard to barely get to a flyball that he should've been able to waltz over to. Then, with that in mind, you start watching closely, and you see that he never gets a good jump, plus he simply cannot go back on a ball to save his life, so he plays too deep, etc., etc. With Pie, it's not about noticing stuff like that. It's been way more dramatic and obvious. It's been a handful of "WTF?" moments right away. So, it's not a case of him being a good athlete whose lack of instincts slowly dawns on you. It's more like, "Hey, GD it, where's the guy who sold me this used car?"

So, how to make sense of this? Were all the scouts and coaches who were raving about his great OF ability just fooled? Could they have been seeing the same things we're seeing and somehow think he's great? I don't think so. That just doesn't seem plausible. So, I think it's gotta be something else. I think some of it is the LF thing. But not all of it. There's other stuff that's more basic, like failing to just grab the ball, or letting the ball get by him, or other basic stuff that a good HS player does right. I think that's the stuff that tells you his instincts suck. Now, I don't know about you, but I figure this is stuff that scouts would have noticed... if it was there when they were looking. Since they didn't see it, I figure it wasn't there when they were looking. So, what's up?

Here's my completely unproven theory: I think the guy is wound tighter than a drum. I think he just went from dreams of playing CF in the WS at Wrigley to all-the-sudden being demoted to a last place team *and* being demoted to LF. Face it, if you're used to being the next great WS CF, you don't wanna be a part-time LF'er on a last place team, at least not in your dreams. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he has some kind of attitude about it. Rather, I just think that the whole thing has him shook up to the point where he's not acting like the guy who all the scouts saw. I don't think this means he's got some character flaw, or that he's a head case, or anything like that. I just think the whole thing has him scared to death and has him *very* tightly wound, to the point where's he's goofing up on things that he always automatically did before, just by natural reflex. Then, when his natural reflexes aren't working, then that makes him even *more* tightly wound, and, well, you see the problem.

Bottom line: the stuff we're seeing in the OF is stuff that I simply do not believe he could fool scouts about. So, I think it's temporary. As for the hitting, he actually looks better than I thought he would. His numbers don't, but he does. When it comes to fixing whatever's wrong with him at the plate, I trust Crow a whole lot more than I trust me. But I do trust myself to know what a decent OF'er looks like, and the guy we've been seeing is not the same guy who the scouts and coaches were raving about. So, I'm just waiting for that guy to show up. In the meantime, if I was DT, I think I'd do 2 things: First, I'd tell him just relax and go play LF. Then, I'd hand him a Xanax and say "But first, swallow this". Then, I'd just wait for him to make a stellar play or three and get himself on Web Gems a couple times, and then I'd take the Xanax away. Now, I could be completely wrong, but that's what I'd do. It seems better than just hating on the guy.

[Anonymous]

Well, Dip, I don't know what to say. It's not like you to get so down on somebody after a measly few games.

You said some things I agree with, and some things I don't.

Here's what I agree with:

• I agree that being good at baseball requires baseball instincts, and you can't teach them.
• I agree that DCab doesn't have them, but nobody said he did. I also think CPat doesn't have them. With him, that wasn't apparent at first glance, but once you watch him for a while, you can tell. CPat is a good, fast athlete who just doesn't have good baseball instincts. To me, he's the opposite of BRob, who I think is an OK athlete (by ML standards) who has excellent baseball instincts.
• In the OF, Pie sure looks befuddled sometimes, which is way different than the story we got in advance.

I was expecting Pie to be a flash in the OF, perhaps with some initial funkiness due to the LF adjustment. I expected the befuddlement to show up at the plate. What I've seen is the exact opposite of what I expected. He looks better at the plate than I expected (instinct-wise, not finished-product-wise) and he looks way worse in the OF than I expected. I don't know if you agree with this, but for the moment let's pretend you do, OK?

The mystery is how to explain the diff between what we were led to believe about his supposedly great OF-D vs. what we're seeing with our very own eyeballs. To me, this is way more mysterious than DCab or CPat was. With DCab, nobody ever said he had good instincts, it was just that he could throw pitches that nobody could hit. With CPat, he looked pretty OK at first, but then you started noticing things, like he was always racing hard to barely get to a flyball that he should've been able to waltz over to. Then, with that in mind, you start watching closely, and you see that he never gets a good jump, plus he simply cannot go back on a ball to save his life, so he plays too deep, etc., etc. With Pie, it's not about noticing stuff like that. It's been way more dramatic and obvious. It's been a handful of "WTF?" moments right away. So, it's not a case of him being a good athlete whose lack of instincts slowly dawns on you. It's more like, "Hey, GD it, where's the guy who sold me this used car?"

So, how to make sense of this? Were all the scouts and coaches who were raving about his great OF ability just fooled? Could they have been seeing the same things we're seeing and somehow think he's great? I don't think so. That just doesn't seem plausible. So, I think it's gotta be something else. I think some of it is the LF thing. But not all of it. There's other stuff that's more basic, like failing to just grab the ball, or letting the ball get by him, or other basic stuff that a good HS player does right. I think that's the stuff that tells you his instincts suck. Now, I don't know about you, but I figure this is stuff that scouts would have noticed... if it was there when they were looking. Since they didn't see it, I figure it wasn't there when they were looking. So, what's up?

Here's my completely unproven theory: I think the guy is wound tighter than a drum. I think he just went from dreams of playing CF in the WS at Wrigley to all-the-sudden being demoted to a last place team *and* being demoted to LF. Face it, if you're used to being the next great WS CF, you don't wanna be a part-time LF'er on a last place team, at least not in your dreams. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he has some kind of attitude about it. Rather, I just think that the whole thing has him shook up to the point where he's not acting like the guy who all the scouts saw. I don't think this means he's got some character flaw, or that he's a head case, or anything like that. I just think the whole thing has him scared to death and has him *very* tightly wound, to the point where's he's goofing up on things that he always automatically did before, just by natural reflex. Then, when his natural reflexes aren't working, then that makes him even *more* tightly wound, and, well, you see the problem.

Bottom line: the stuff we're seeing in the OF is stuff that I simply do not believe he could fool scouts about. So, I think it's temporary. As for the hitting, he actually looks better than I thought he would. His numbers don't, but he does. When it comes to fixing whatever's wrong with him at the plate, I trust Crow a whole lot more than I trust me. But I do trust myself to know what a decent OF'er looks like, and the guy we've been seeing is not the same guy who the scouts and coaches were raving about. So, I'm just waiting for that guy to show up. In the meantime, if I was DT, I think I'd do 2 things: First, I'd tell him just relax and go play LF. Then, I'd hand him a Xanax and say "But first, swallow this". Then, I'd just wait for him to make a stellar play or three and get himself on Web Gems a couple times, and then I'd take the Xanax away. Now, I could be completely wrong, but that's what I'd do. It seems better than just hating on the guy.

Circumstancial evidence, admittedly ... but he arrived, from what I could tell, with the healthiest attitude imaginable. He seemed thrilled over this new opportunity rather than distraught in any manner whatsoever regarding his departure from the Cubbies. So I'm skeptical that his weaker-than-expected defensive performance can be chalked up to OPACY-deficiency syndrome.

[Hutman]

Still to early to pull the plug on the Pie experiment. If he is still struggling in June then its time for the Nolan Riemold experiment to begin.

[tennOsfan]

I think RShack's post makes a lot of sense. Pie might be pressing a bit too much.

However, I'm not as impressed with him at this stage as I was with Jones and Markakis in April of their first seasons. Part of me says let's stick with Pie and see what happens, and the other part would really like to see Montanez showing some real stick in that spot.

[Dipper9]

I'm sure Felix Pie will be crushed if he reads this. So, if and when Felix Pie, becomes a solid player for the O's, what do you do then? Ignore him? Turn off the TV when he's up? Finished with him? What the heck does that even mean?

I hope to hell Pie gets it gear so we can reread this thread and others and have a good laugh.

I have said numerous times that I HOPE TO HELL that the guy proves me wrong. However, I have watched baseball for 35 years and I see nothing in this guy that tells me he will come out of it. I am not a pro scout, but neither are you guys. You act all high and mighty like your opinion is right and mine is wrong. The fact is, IF he turns it around, I will eat crow all night long and admit how wrong I was. But right now, when Freel and Pie come to the plate, I have ZERO confidence that they will do anything positive.

You and others want to talk about his potential and his five tools. All I am saying is that just because someone has the five tools does not make him a great major leaguer.

[Nigel Tufnel]

I guess Pie will be starting in CF today, so it will be interesting to see how he looks at his natural position.

[zff4]

So, how to make sense of this? Etc....

I think you're right. Pie understands his survival is riding on his performance and survival to a young Dominican athlete probably means something fairly stark. It's plausible that he can't play through the nerves.

But I think it's something more than that however. We are all used to a certain grace displayed by outfielders, it's an economy of movement that is so pleasing to the eye. Jones has it in spades. I haven't seen it in Pie, not a lick.

I'm not saying he's not going to snap out of it. But there's something "wrong" out there. You say it's nerves. I don't see any easy athleticism.

He doesn't appear comfortable and many of us are not comfortable watching him. But it only matters what DT and AM are thinking, and I'd give a dollar to know what that is.