Tillman not part of "the core?"

[Mooreisbetter27]

You think a fastball that touches 96 is average?

http://insider.espn.go.com/fantasy/baseball/flb/story?page=greyminorachievements090422&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2ffantasy%2fbaseball%2fflb%2fstory%3fpage%3dgreyminorachievements090422

Read that article where it talks about Tillman, and this is before he developed the solid changeup. A fastball that sits in the low 90's and can touch up to 96 is not average. Maybe to you it is, but not to scouts and in the world of baseball......

I think what's very important about his fastball and what's been touched on by multiple people is the fact that it's very straight. It has little to no movement. That means even at 96 it's coming in straight as an arrow so it's easier to square up on.

That's the main problem with his fastball.

[Sports Guy]

You think a fastball that touches 96 is average?

http://insider.espn.go.com/fantasy/baseball/flb/story?page=greyminorachievements090422&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2ffantasy%2fbaseball%2fflb%2fstory%3fpage%3dgreyminorachievements090422

Read that article where it talks about Tillman, and this is before he developed the solid changeup. A fastball that sits in the low 90's and can touch up to 96 is not average. Maybe to you it is, but not to scouts and in the world of baseball......

Touching that is one thing...But its consistently in that 90-93 range...And it doesn't have a ton of movement nor does he have great command yet.

That isn't plus IMO.

The velocity is fine but the lack of movement and command takes away the idea of it being plus.

Velocity is the third most important thing here.

[QBsILLEST1]

Touching that is one thing...But its consistently in that 90-93 range...And it doesn't have a ton of movement nor does he have great command yet.

That isn't plus IMO.

The velocity is fine but the lack of movement and command takes away the idea of it being plus.

Velocity is the third most important thing here.

I took a bit fo time to go look at some PITCH FX data on Tillman and how he compares to other pitchers who most would consider to have a "plus" fastball with good movement.....

First off, Tillman pitches anywhere from 90-96. His average speed in his 9/11 start was at 92 MPH. He topped out that day at 95. Now, the next couple of stats I am going to throw out there have more meaning IMO if you compare them to AJ Burnett who I would consider to have excellent movement on his fastball.....

Tillman's average horizontal break: -6.00

Tillman's average vertical break: 11.02

AJ Burnett's average horizontal break: -7.25

AJ Burnett's average vertical break: 7.92

In this start, AJ's average fastball velocity was 93 and he topped out at 96.

I do not think you will find a single person out there who will say AJ Burnett's fastball is not plus. And Tillman's fastball is quite comparable to AJ's. AJ has a tad bit more horizontal movement, but Tillman makes up for that with a whole lot more vertical movement.

As for velocity, AJ's avg and top velocity was 1 MPH more than Tillman's. Both have shoddy command as well.

This is not an argument to say Tillman's fastball is better or even equal to AJ's, but it is damn close. So, as I originally said, Tillman's fastball is above average to plus. Definitely not average......

[SoBo]

Given Tillman's age, is it unthinkable that as he fills out that he will pick up a couple mph on his heater? He looked like a kid amongst men out there last year.

[Lucky Jim]

Given Tillman's age, is it unthinkable that as he fills out that he will pick up a couple mph on his heater? He looked like a kid amongst men out there last year.

No. I also think better command of his FB will help a lot. One of his main problems is that his movement is more vertical than horizontal, and for some reason he still leaves the ball up over the plate. He needs to pound that fastball down and away and up and in, and he'll be fine w/ the movement and velo he has. And better when/if he picks up a MPH or two.

[SoBo]

No. I also think better command of his FB will help a lot. One of his main problems is that his movement is more vertical than horizontal, and for some reason he still leaves the ball up over the plate. He needs to pount that fastball down and away and up and in, and he'll be fine w/ the movement and velo he has. And better when/if he picks up a MPH or two.

Thanks... To go along with that hook and developing change, I think Tillman takes a nice step forward in 2010.

[QBsILLEST1]

No. I also think better command of his FB will help a lot. One of his main problems is that his movement is more vertical than horizontal, and for some reason he still leaves the ball up over the plate. He needs to pound that fastball down and away and up and in, and he'll be fine w/ the movement and velo he has. And better when/if he picks up a MPH or two.

I agree with every word you say here. He gets a ton of downward movement on his pitches, IMO thats mostly attributed to his arm slot and the angle he has, but he gets more vertical movement than anyone else that I just went and compared him to with PITCH FX, and that includes Matt Albers who is a sinker ball pitcher. But his fly ball tendencies aren't a result of the movement on his fastball as much as it is result of the location....

And if nothing else, I think as Tillman further fills out, even if he does not add anymore top end velocity, I think he will increase the velocity of where he sits at. Rather than him being 90-93 topping out at 96 he may sit 92-94 while still topping out at 96.

[NaptownOfan]

This entire topic is proof positive of how pathetic this site can be. If certain posters, or one of the "insiders" introduced this topic, some would be drooling all over them with comments such as "Wow what a great point, I never thought about that", "thanks so much, you are the best", "please tell us more" or "when are you going to do your next interview". If it's made by someone who is disliked, you see pathetic insults hurled that don't even address the topic, such as "he must have been drunk" "it's a conspiracy theory" "oh I guess grammar doesn't matter" or "wow, learn how to spell dude!".

Now that I am guilty myself for not yet addressing the topic --- yes I am surprised Tillman wasn't placed in the wallpaper. It's obvious they wanted to include the entire outfield, however Tillman should have been included (and touted as a key part of the clubs direction) over Reimhold. And no, I'm not drunk, I likely did mess up somewhere here with grammar or spelling, I don't have 150k posts to my credit, and I think Roch is a joke with those 80's style arm buldging shirts, but hey, that my opinion.

[Lucky Jim]

This entire topic is proof positive of how pathetic this site can be. If certain posters, or one of the "insiders" introduced this topic, some would be drooling all over them with comments such as "Wow what a great point, I never thought about that", "thanks so much, you are the best", "please tell us more" or "when are you going to do your next interview". If it's made by someone who is disliked, you see pathetic insults hurled that don't even address the topic, such as "he must have been drunk" "it's a conspiracy theory" "oh I guess grammar doesn't matter" or "wow, learn how to spell dude!".

Now that I am guilty myself for not yet addressing the topic --- yes I am surprised Tillman wasn't placed in the wallpaper. It's obvious they wanted to include the entire outfield, however Tillman should have been included (and touted as a key part of the clubs direction) over Reimhold. And no, I'm not drunk, I likely did mess up somewhere here with grammar or spelling, I don't have 150k posts to my credit, and I think Roch is a joke with those 80's style arm buldging shirts, but hey, that my opinion.

Quality rant.

[Sports Guy]

I took a bit fo time to go look at some PITCH FX data on Tillman and how he compares to other pitchers who most would consider to have a "plus" fastball with good movement.....

First off, Tillman pitches anywhere from 90-96. His average speed in his 9/11 start was at 92 MPH. He topped out that day at 95. Now, the next couple of stats I am going to throw out there have more meaning IMO if you compare them to AJ Burnett who I would consider to have excellent movement on his fastball.....

Tillman's average horizontal break: -6.00

Tillman's average vertical break: 11.02

AJ Burnett's average horizontal break: -7.25

AJ Burnett's average vertical break: 7.92

In this start, AJ's average fastball velocity was 93 and he topped out at 96.

I do not think you will find a single person out there who will say AJ Burnett's fastball is not plus. And Tillman's fastball is quite comparable to AJ's. AJ has a tad bit more horizontal movement, but Tillman makes up for that with a whole lot more vertical movement.

As for velocity, AJ's avg and top velocity was 1 MPH more than Tillman's. Both have shoddy command as well.

This is not an argument to say Tillman's fastball is better or even equal to AJ's, but it is damn close. So, as I originally said, Tillman's fastball is above average to plus. Definitely not average......

LOL...Do you understand what the word consistent means?

His fastball is not consistently plus, therefore it is not a plus pitch yet...it will be but its not today.

[Mackus]

This entire topic is proof positive of how pathetic this site can be. If certain posters, or one of the "insiders" introduced this topic, some would be drooling all over them with comments such as "Wow what a great point, I never thought about that", "thanks so much, you are the best", "please tell us more" or "when are you going to do your next interview".

I disagree entirely with this. There may not have been the "tinfoil hat" comments if it was posted by someone who anybody on here respected, but the overwhelming conclusion that this is nothing to see and means nothing about the club's view of Tillman would have remained the same.

The delivery sometimes changes depending on who people are responding to, but the message doesn't.

[QBsILLEST1]

LOL...Do you understand what the word consistent means?

His fastball is not consistently plus, therefore it is not a plus pitch yet...it will be but its not today.

Do I know what the word consistent means? Noope never heard if it before........

You went on to say that his fastball is average. His fastball is not average, this is what I pointed out to you. As a matter of fact I believe I said in one of my posts that some nights his fastball is plus, sometimes above average, but never is it average. So I will say that the fastball is atleast above average, as I have said previously in this thread.

Right now Tillman has an above average to plus fastball, fringe plus-plus curve and an above average changeup

In the future, Tillman's fastball will be plus, curve will be plus-plus and changeup should be plus.

Really, the movement on his fastball is not what is keeping it from being consistently a plus pitch, its the command. Once his command is up to par, it will be consistently plus.....

[Sports Guy]

Do I know what the word consistent means? Noope never heard if it before........

You went on to say that his fastball is average. His fastball is not average, this is what I pointed out to you. As a matter of fact I believe I said in one of my posts that some nights his fastball is plus, sometimes above average, but never is it average. So I will say that the fastball is atleast above average, as I have said previously in this thread.

Right now Tillman has an above average to plus fastball, fringe plus-plus curve and an above average changeup

In the future, Tillman's fastball will be plus, curve will be plus-plus and changeup should be plus.

Really, the movement on his fastball is not what is keeping it from being consistently a plus pitch, its the command. Once his command is up to par, it will be consistently plus.....

Well seeing as you pretty much always overrate our prospects, I am going to disagree with you.

I think his fastball ranges from average to plus..therefore, its not plus because it lacks the consistency to be plus.

Maybe you are just more lenient than me and expect less but I need better command and better consistent movement for it to be considered a plus pitch.