Why not Holliday?

[theobird]

Matt Holliday is better than Jason Bay.

Matt Holliday is not better than several free-agents to be who we would not be able to afford if we were paying Matt Holliday a lot of money to play for the Orioles.

Matt Holliday is a little overrated, especially around here.

Matt Holliday may be a better all around player, but Bay is the better hitter, IMO. And Bay has done it in the AL East. And Holliday struggled in the AL West. I just don't see a huge valuation difference.

[JTrea81]

I still would take Holliday over Bay, but I think you are right in questioning whether or not he is a real cleanup hitter. In fact, I think Lackey is closer to being a genuine ace than Holliday is to being a genuine scary cleanup hitter, but sometimes people take Holliday's prowess as a given because he is the best available hitter in a weak market.

Have you seen his career numbers in the #4 spot?

.322/.398/.550/.948 and that includes a .316/.397/.535/.932 line last year.

I don't think it gets too much better than that for under 20 million per year.

Mark Teixeira had a .292/.383/.565/.948 line last year and will cost $4-5 million more per season.

[JTrea81]

Matt Holliday may be a better all around player, but Bay is the better hitter, IMO. And Bay has done it in the AL East. And Holliday struggled in the AL West. I just don't see a huge valuation difference.

Holliday's struggles in the #4 spot gave him this line:

.289/.381/.480/.861

That would have lead the Orioles by far.

Holliday also had a wretched April while he was trying to adjust to a new league.

But just look at his May-July

<PRE>

Split G GS PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB ROE BAbip tOPS+ sOPS+

May 29 29 125 103 18 30 2 0 5 16 4 1 19 17 .291 .416 .456 .872 47 2 3 0 0 2 1 .309 94 134

June 28 28 115 100 15 28 10 0 2 12 5 1 13 17 .280 .374 .440 .814 44 2 2 0 0 1 1 .321 80 123

July 18 18 80 68 14 23 7 0 3 14 3 1 10 12 .338 .413 .574 .986 39 3 0 0 2 0 0 .364 116 162

</PRE>

[treasure07]

Methinks Jtrea has changed his obsession from Teixiera to Holliday..... :scratchchinhmm:

[El Gordo]

Matt Holliday may be a better all around player, but Bay is the better hitter, IMO. And Bay has done it in the AL East. And Holliday struggled in the AL West. I just don't see a huge valuation difference.

Care to elaborate? I just looked at their numbers and I don't see where you get that.

[tvz1997]

Have you seen his career numbers in the #4 spot?

.322/.398/.550/.948 and that includes a .316/.397/.535/.932 line last year.

I don't think it gets too much better than that for under 20 million per year.

Mark Teixeira had a .292/.383/.565/.948 line last year and will cost $4-5 million more per season.

Maybe I'm wrong. I see him as being a similar hitter to Bobby Bonilla and Bonilla has some of the most cleanup ABs in baseball over the past fifty years. Like Bonilla, a lot of his damage comes on doubles rather than homers, but I'm okay with that.

I will say that the Oakland experiment is pretty scary and his WAR has fallen each of the last two years, just as he tries for a long-term contract.

I think Holliday is the #4 hitter on a majority of teams, just as Lackey is #1 on a majority of teams. I just don't think he is the "bees knees."

[Bradysburns]

Don't think of him as an OFer, rather a RH #4 hitter that is good defensively at his position.

Would you give a RH #4 hitter of his caliber that was good defensively 18+ million per season regardless of position?

And by signing him, you free up one or two of those OFers for a deal.

Right. I think have you to look for all opportunities to make the team better now and in the future. That kind of move - upgrading LF and trading an OF or two for prospects - would qualify IMHOAS (in my humble opinion and stuff).

[JTrea81]

Cardinals offer less than 18 million per season for Holliday...

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/A6FEB0E82D157F588625768A00100F1D?OpenDocument

This is when you jump in and offer 6/114 and see if anybody can beat it.

[DrungoHazewood]

Have you seen his career numbers in the #4 spot?

.322/.398/.550/.948 and that includes a .316/.397/.535/.932 line last year.

I don't think it gets too much better than that for under 20 million per year.

Mark Teixeira had a .292/.383/.565/.948 line last year and will cost $4-5 million more per season.

Yes, I've seen them, and I don't care. Splits broken down by things like batting order position are usually misleading, at best.

[JTrea81]

Well the Cards apparently have offered Holliday 8/128.

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/8BDAA64CC99AD8D98625768D00172D31?OpenDocument

Now the question is will some team offer 6/114 with an option for 7/133?

And before anybody asks, no I'm not willing to go to 8 years on any Holliday deal.

[El Gordo]

Well the Cards apparently have offered Holliday 8/128.

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/8BDAA64CC99AD8D98625768D00172D31?OpenDocument

Now the question is will some team offer 6/114 with an option for 7/133?

And before anybody asks, no I'm not willing to go to 8 years on any Holliday deal.

He wants to play for the Cards. What do we have to offer to get him to cpme here> I'm sure it has to be more than what the Yankees would offer.

[SrMeowMeow]

If there really was no market for Holliday, and if the Cardinals weren't reportedly offering 15 years and 450 million or whatever that terrible offer was that I saw rumored, then I would consider it a creative use of resources to sign Holliday to 4/82M and trade Jones and Scott to fill a couple needs. But that's not the case.

I really do like the idea of trading players and immediately filling the hole via FA. I think juggling payroll like that is a concept that's generally ignored around here mainly because our payroll is so low that there's a reasonable argument that we shouldn't have to be that creative.

[Bradysburns]

Well the Cards apparently have offered Holliday 8/128.

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/8BDAA64CC99AD8D98625768D00172D31?OpenDocument

Now the question is will some team offer 6/114 with an option for 7/133?

And before anybody asks, no I'm not willing to go to 8 years on any Holliday deal.

I would run from that deal. Eight years is just a ridiculous length for any contract, unless you're signing an international free agent who is 24 with world-dominating experience. Congratulations, Mr. Holliday. NEXT.

If that's true, I would think the Holliday-to-Orioles threads would officially die now. There is NO way we are going to approach that offer, nor should we.

[tvz1997]

I would run from that deal. Eight years is just a ridiculous length for any contract, unless you're signing an international free agent who is 24 with world-dominating experience. Congratulations, Mr. Holliday. NEXT.

If that's true, I would think the Holliday-to-Orioles threads would officially die now. There is NO way we are going to approach that offer, nor should we.

It's the no-trade and opt-out demands that totally eliminate him from the plans of any but the richest and most foolish teams. Time to move on.

http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/1779/at-what-cost-holliday

[Dipper9]

I would run from that deal. Eight years is just a ridiculous length for any contract, unless you're signing an international free agent who is 24 with world-dominating experience. Congratulations, Mr. Holliday. NEXT.

If that's true, I would think the Holliday-to-Orioles threads would officially die now. There is NO way we are going to approach that offer, nor should we.

Unfortunately these facts will not stop some from bashing the Orioles and saying we let another "premium talent" go by without even trying.