SI ranks MacPhail the 12th best GM in MLB (but 4th in AL East)

[RShack]

Interesting analogy though, I do love war history, not as much up on Civil War as WWII history though.

Well, then it might be like whoever the USAAF guy was who decided we needed a few thousand P-51's, to not only escort bombers to the ball bearings factories, but also to simply erase the Luftwaffe before D-Day. He gets more credit than the Luftwaffe decision-maker. That's not in spite of the fact that it wasn't a fair fight, it was because our guy made sure it wasn't a fair fight. That's what his job was, and that's what Cashman's job is: to make sure it's not a fair fight. (Which is why it will be even better when we kick the snot out of them again like we used to ;-)

[Moose Milligan]

What has Billy Beane ever done to show that he belongs in the top 10 of this list.

Has he ever proven that he can take oakland to the next level ?

He reminds me a lot of Dale Earnhart jr.

He has a lot of fans but I can not figure out why.

He should not be known for moneyball.

Instead it should be called Moneymediocreball.

Uh oh, where's SG? Someones attacked his Mancrush!!

[Avsfan]

Not really surprised with those that get "it" and those that don't...

I'd take Cashman as the GM of the O's any day of the week. Epstein is probably the single smartest executive in baseball, bar none.

[crowmst3k!]

Not really surprised with those that get "it" and those that don't...

I'd take Cashman as the GM of the O's any day of the week. Epstein is probably the single smartest executive in baseball, bar none.

I'll give Cashman some credit. He seldom allows his players and their agents to push him around in contract negotiations. For example: he absolutely does not do extensions before the end of a contract. Jeter is coming up after this year, and he has gone on the record as saying that he won't address the issue until the off season.

Granted, it's hard to have agents push you around when you're typically the highest bidder for their player's services.

I like Epstein a lot. The Red Sox, have a great approach in combining a very SABER-Centric model with a strong cashflow to building their organization. It doesn't hurt that Bill James also works for them.

But still, in terms of absolute efficiency, I'll take Bill Smith of the Minnesota Twins (not sure he could make it work in the east, however)

[jiminnj]

We know his job description mainly is about winning. Not sure that his job description includes being efficient with money. Robert E. Lee was way more efficient than Ulysses S. Grant. Grant's idea was to stock up on troops and supplies until the other guy had no prayer. Nothing efficient about that, but who won the war? Now, this is not exactly the same thing, but it's not exactly different either...

I'm sure glad Cashman is no Ulysses S. Grant. Grant had a lot of ideas beyond stocking up on troops and supplies until the guy had no prayer. Grant annihilated the opposing armies. He was the only Civil War general who did so. Early in the war he captured the 15,000 southern army at Donelson, they never fought again, after Shiloh the southern army was so beaten up it was disbanded and the remaining units sent elsewhere. In the Vicksburg campaign, Grant abandoned his supply lines, and used manunverability and surprise to beat Confederate forces that outnumbered him and eventually forced the Confederate army in Vicksburg to surrender, at Chatanooga he totally trashed the Confederate army, although it did live to fight again, and in the end he forced Lee to surrender to him. Robert E. Lee never once annihilated an opposing army, his greatest victory was Chancelorsville where he gave the Army of the Potomac a good thrashing, but that army was not annihilated, it was able to turn the tables and give Lee a good thrashing at Gettysburg less than 2 months later. When Grant finished with an enemy they were gone, defeated, and no longer a viable army, that was something the Robert E. Lee never accomplished once despite facing some incredibly incompetent opposing generals. Grant was probably the greatest general of the Civil War, the only question is whether Sherman was even better.

Thankfully Cashman is not the greatest GM around.

[Mackus]

Well, then it might be like whoever the USAAF guy was who decided we needed a few thousand P-51's, to not only escort bombers to the ball bearings factories, but also to simply erase the Luftwaffe before D-Day. He gets more credit than the Luftwaffe decision-maker. That's not in spite of the fact that it wasn't a fair fight, it was because our guy made sure it wasn't a fair fight. That's what his job was, and that's what Cashman's job is: to make sure it's not a fair fight. (Which is why it will be even better when we kick the snot out of them again like we used to ;-)

So we're the Germans in this analogy?

[BaltimoreTerp]

So, you're saying the analogy is bad because Cashman never had to take Vicksburg? ;-)

If guys who study this stuff ranked the top 30 generals in the Civil War, Grant would be somewhere very near the top, and that would be true even if he never had the Western campaign. Now, exactly where he would rank, I have no idea. But they wouldn't kick him out of the Top Few just because he had lots of resources. He'd be near the top because of what he did with all the resources he had, which is the same reason Cashman is ranked high. Look, I hate the MFY's as much as anybody, but arguing with success generally doesn't work, no matter what domain you're talking about.

I think if Grant did what he did by having George Meade's track (slowly rising through command as a competent but not particularly flashy commander) instead of everything he did in the west, he would have his place on the list qualified like Cashman. The fact that he had stunning successes gave him his reputation as a Rebel-beater, so that when he came east and defeated both the legend and the reality of the Army of Northern Virginia he just added on to it. He would have been considered a hero either way, but likely not one of the greatest generals in U.S. history had he not had his previous successes.

[Slappy]

I think if Grant did what he did by having George Meade's track (slowly rising through command as a competent but not particularly flashy commander) instead of everything he did in the west, he would have his place on the list qualified like Cashman. The fact that he had stunning successes gave him his reputation as a Rebel-beater, so that when he came east and defeated both the legend and the reality of the Army of Northern Virginia he just added on to it. He would have been considered a hero either way, but likely not one of the greatest generals in U.S. history had he not had his previous successes.

While we're into history class, the analogy between Cashman and Grant could also be applied to Cashman and Reagan. Reagan basically won the Cold War by forcing the Ruskies to blow the limited resources they had on military spending to keep up with us, causing them to collapse from the bottom when they couldn't feed their own people. If you have the resources, it's stupid not to use them to your advantage. Frugality is for those who need it.

[BaltimoreTerp]

While we're into history class, the analogy between Cashman and Grant could also be applied to Cashman and Reagan. Reagan basically won the Cold War by forcing the Ruskies to blow the limited resources they had on military spending to keep up with us, causing them to collapse from the bottom when they couldn't feed their own people. If you have the resources, it's stupid not to use them to your advantage. Frugality is for those who need it.

That's not the argument, though. The question is whether you should get credit for having the resources in the first place.

[mweb]

Not really surprised with those that get "it" and those that don't...

I'd take Cashman as the GM of the O's any day of the week. Epstein is probably the single smartest executive in baseball, bar none.

So what is "it?" Myself and others aren't bashing Cashman, we're just saying it's hard to evaluate him compared to other GM's.

You can take him as our GM if you like, but you have very little idea of what you'll be getting considering we have no clue on how he'd operate with our budget.

Epstein is good, but his track record of moves isn't incredible imo.

[RShack]

While we're into history class, the analogy between Cashman and Grant could also be applied to Cashman and Reagan. Reagan basically won the Cold War by forcing the Ruskies to blow the limited resources they had on military spending to keep up with us, causing them to collapse from the bottom when they couldn't feed their own people.

Oh dear. Let's not go there. The Soviet Union crumbled from it's own weight. It was a battle to see which system could do a better job of creating a good society for ordinary people. After decades and decades, even the Commies admitted that their system didn't work. The Chinese started their own shift away from the Communist model before Reagan did anything at all. The claim that the Commies changed direction because of Reagan, or because of any American president, is naive revisionist history. They didn't fold because of Reagan, they folded because they witnessed their own failure to deliver over decades and decades. Their failure was in sharp contrast to what happened under various American presidents, both Democrats and Republicans, who were pretty much on the same page, combined with the succes of the moderate, decent version of American free enterprise. The idea that any administration "basically won the Cold War" is nonsense. It's normal for whoever is in office at the time something happens gets credit or blame, but that doesn't mean it's true. Truman didn't "lose China", the Chinese decided who won within China. The Soviets didn't cave to outside forces, they caved to inside forces.

[RShack]

So we're the Germans in this analogy?

Ha! That's the problem with analogies.

I'm sorry I started it ;-)

[waroriole]

So we're the Germans in this analogy?

At least we'll get alot of strikeouts. (Will anyone get what I'm saying, besides BTerp)

[Lucky Jim]

At least we'll get alot of strikeouts. (Will anyone get what I'm saying, besides BTerp)

Give us a little credit, Nuke. (See my avatar.)

[waroriole]

Give us a little credit, Nuke. (See my avatar.)

Hmmm, for the longest time I thought your avatar was an Indian.