Cubs showing interest in Bedard

[owl]

But he was dealt less than 2 months later.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/news/020705weaver.html

Therefore he's not an example of a PTBNL that waited out draft trade eligibility? I'm not saying Vitters will be included like this (because he won't) but first you said you've never heard of it possible, then it was possible but you didn't think it ever happened, now it happened but they only waited 2 months so it doesn't count? I don't see your point. It's possible, it's happened, it'll happen again, there are protections for your extremes (cash or a substitute, as I had mentioned) and teams would consider this a legit option. Of course a player in that position rarely has very much trade value anyway so no one is really focusing on the first year players.

[owl]

Just as a little aside, Donnie's (Veal) father was just killed this last month just 3 years after his mother had died. It doesn't make him a worse prospect in trade but it does make both parties a little more hesitant to trade him.

[IamSpartacus]

Help me out with this - and am not directing this thought at any particular person, real or imagined, but I have seen comments about how MacPhail is the man with a plan (at least as far as B'ball operations go) and that we are in good hands and then see the same person - sometimes in the same thread - say that the O's are the worst run team in baseball, etc.

As far as baseball operations, it can't be both. Either MacPhail is in charge, is the right guy for the job and we are in good hands or the team is poorly run and messed up big time. If MacPhail is the man we can't be poorly run anymore. If we are poorly run then he is not the guy we thought he was.

My feeling about MacPhail is that he is the best baseball man we have had in town since Gillick was run off. I am on the fence about his "strategy" and about his being able to pull it off. He has never rebuilt a team before. In fact, while he went out and got a couple guys who helped put Minnesota in the Series, they actually went backwards under MacPhail.

But while we were once a good laugh during happy hour for the rest of MLB, we are no longer. We have to throw that baggage off the train.

[Sports Guy]

Therefore he's not an example of a PTBNL that waited out draft trade eligibility? I'm not saying Vitters will be included like this (because he won't) but first you said you've never heard of it possible, then it was possible but you didn't think it ever happened, now it happened but they only waited 2 months so it doesn't count? I don't see your point. It's possible, it's happened, it'll happen again, there are protections for your extremes (cash or a substitute, as I had mentioned) and teams would consider this a legit option. Of course a player in that position rarely has very much trade value anyway so no one is really focusing on the first year players.

Did you actually read what I said or did you choose to gloss over the most important part?

Let me try this again:

When has a player ever been named as PTBNL, in a large trade like this(and that player be the key to the deal) and that team not get the player for SIX MONTHS!!!??

I never, ever stated that it hasn't happened within a shorter time frame.

[theobird]

Well the M's are now on the verge of signing Silva, so that option appears to be petering out. AM needs to get this thing done. It would not surprise me to see a Cubs deal with Pie, Colvin, Gallagher, Theriot, Patterson, Veal and Guzman coming back for Bedard and BRob. We'll see.

[PaulFolk]

Don't apply logic to this. You're talking about a team that gave up Scott, Cherry, and Novoa for 2 months of Trachsel (plus part of his salary, right?).

It was Cherry, Moore, and Jake Renshaw.

[IamSpartacus]

AM was GM from 1985 - 1994:

Year League Record Finish

2000 AL Cent 69-93 (.426) 5

1999 AL Cent 63-97 (.394) 5

1998 AL Cent 70-92 (.432) 4

1997 AL Cent 68-94 (.420) 4

1996 AL Cent 78-84 (.481) 4

1995 AL Cent 56-88 (.389) 5

1994 AL Cent 53-60 (.469) 4

1993 AL West 71-91 (.438) 5

1992 AL West 90-72 (.556) 2

1991 AL West 95-67 (.586) WS 1

1990 AL West 74-88 (.457) 7

1989 AL West 80-82 (.494) 5

1988 AL West 91-71 (.562) 2

1987 AL West 85-77 (.525) WS 1

1986 AL West 71-91 (.438) 6

1985 AL West 77-85 (.475) 4

[erb8472]

1191-1332 Overall (.472 win %)

[davearm]

I'm not going to pick a side on the "went backward" debate, but I am going to point out that MacPhail should be judged more on the 2 playoffs in 10 years, than the 2 WS championships.

It takes quite a bit of good luck to win in the postseason, and many teams make the postseason frequently only to lose every year (Oakland under Beane, Atlanta for more than a decade, NYY in this decade).

The Twins and the Marlins were each incredibly lucky to go 2-for-2 in their respective postseason trips. Heck winning a WS once for every four or five trips to the postseason would be bucking the odds.

[The Goob]

Dave - what do you believe the Cubs would legitimately offer for Bedard and Roberts?

[erb8472]

Yeah, but it's the friggin Minnesota market, and they won two World Series. I don't think he deserves too much credit, but saying they went backwards under McPhail seems a little harsh also. Besides, I think you added all of the years on that list and not just the 1985-1994 years. If my math is correct, they were actually over .500 during those years.

Your math is correct if you added just 1985-1994 it would be 787-784. Three games over .500.

[owl]

When has a player ever been named as PTBNL, in a large trade like this(and that player be the key to the deal) and that team not get the player for SIX MONTHS!!!??

Are you asking when has a team decided the player at the time of the trade and then received that player 6 months later? And are we still talking about Rule 4 draft guys or just PTBNL in general now? Obviously they wouldn't announce who the PTBNL is going to be so he's never going to be publicly the "key to the deal" of a top player's trade. But teams obviously wait 6 months (the max time) for the PTBNL often and a good amount of the time they have a good idea of who it's going to be. This is often used with first year players since they can't be traded in that first year. How many times have they used the full 6 months? I don't know offhand but I imagine plenty. It doesn't happen often with first rounders though and like I said they aren't really "keys to the deal" with few exceptions--but you've now heavily qualified your original statement and I was only trying to help clarify. !!!??

[davearm]

Dave - what do you believe the Cubs would legitimately offer for Bedard and Roberts?

I think the only untouchables would be Rich Hill and Geo Soto. Marmol's a wildcard.

A lot would depend on which guys the O's valued most, but you'd probably get the top 4 or 5 guys on your list, plus maybe 1 or 2 more.

Gallagher and Pie seem certain to be in as the "headliners".

Veal seems like a guy you'd want.

Pick a few "plug-ins" from Cedeno, Murton, Marshall, Fontenot, Patterson, Hart, Wuertz.

And pick a few prospects from Colvin, Ceda, Ascanio, Burke, Fox, Guzman, Harben, Huseby etc.

It's really difficult to pin down an exact combination, because so many are plausible.

[Lucky Jim]

I'm not going to pick a side on the "went backward" debate, but I am going to point out that MacPhail should be judged more on the 2 playoffs in 10 years, than the 2 WS championships.

It takes quite a bit of good luck to win in the postseason, and many teams make the postseason frequently only to lose every year (Oakland under Beane, Atlanta for more than a decade, NYY in this decade).

The Twins and the Marlins were each incredibly lucky to go 2-for-2 in their respective postseason trips. Heck winning a WS once for every four or five trips to the postseason would be bucking the odds.

Well, the wild card certainly helps. MacPhail didn't have the benefit of that, did he? Otherwise, he may well have had a shot in 1988 and 1992.

Certainly, too, the wild card has changed roster managment and trade strategy.

[Sandwich Pick]

Sean Marshall and Eric Patterson. Take it or leave it. Sorry, I'm not Dave, but I did stay at cheap motel last night.

but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express!

Bedard

Roberts

for

Pie

Colvin

Veal

Galla.....

You know, I'd much rather NOT send Bedard to the Cubs.