Oriole players are upset WOW

[bt12483]

All of the "elite" free agents will be scooped up by teams that actually care about winning, and the Os, as usual, will sign the best of what is left, for as little as they can. This usually means some 35+ old players, some guys that had a few good seasons 5-7 years ago, or guys that are career journeymen. Then expect to compete with the teams that signed the elite talent. Wash rinse repeat.

We will never get anywhere if we can't spend money. It is sad when you see these contracts and realize the Os will never give out such money, and therefore will never make true free agent improvements to the team...to win. The rules of modern day baseball dictate, in general, that you have to spend big to win big. We spend small and will thus win small, if we are lucky.

People keep saying it is only December, yet other teams are busy signing impact Free Agents, whereas we are probably figuring out how far we can stretch and dilute a measly $10M. It is depressing. And makes it hard to support such an entity.

[Ruzious]

i get the impression that the posters who are so concerned about the possibility of over-spending on anyone - would end up the offseason acquiring 25 backup infielders, 15 relievers who belong in AAA, and a bunch of 4A 29 year old pinch-hitters.

[Dipper9]

i get the impression that the posters who are so concerned about the possibility of over-spending on anyone - would end up the offseason acquiring 25 backup infielders, 15 relievers who belong in AAA, and a bunch of 4A 29 year old pinch-hitters.

So in essence, we would be Dan Duquette?

[bt12483]

i get the impression that the posters who are so concerned about the possibility of over-spending on anyone - would end up the offseason acquiring 25 backup infielders, 15 relievers who belong in AAA, and a bunch of 4A 29 year old pinch-hitters.

Hey now that sounds like some awesome Orioles style "resource allocation"...spend $ on 5-10 guys that will make little to no difference just to avoid giving someone (aka a difference maker) a big contract.

I don't agree with baseball economics. I think the system sucks. But the reality is top guys want 5-7 years for $100-200M dollars. If you aren't willing to pay that you are in the wrong business. Or better get used to not winning and merely milk your dedicated fanbase with false hope.

When the only way you can win relies on miracles or unsustainable oddities (e.g. going 27-9 in one run games)...you have little to no shot at sustained success on a high level.

[Dipper9]

I agree, and as I asked yesterday, what message does it send to Davis and Wieters? It was already going to be hard to get them to sign here. Why would they extend now with a team that clearly shows they are not willing to go the extra mile to win it all? Davis and Wieters can be very rich gentlemen in Baltimore, or they can be EVEN richer gentlemen playing for other, better run teams in 2 years. What would we do?

Davis will be hitting bombs in NY in 2016. Wieters will be catching in Fenway. And the Orioles will be cellar dwellers once again.

[quidam]

How about this: does it make sense to pay a guy playing the game's most volatile position, who isn't worth $10 million, $10 million? I'm fine with starting the conversation right there, whether DD has an infinite budget or not. His periphs are unimpressive and his value is massively inflated by a worthless statistic. To the traditionalist, he has blown it during the playoffs. What am I missing that makes it a teeth-gnashing decision to dump him? Can you find a GM dumb enough to give us something for him? Never mind Roy Firestone's insane idea about "two top AA pitchers" (lol), the reason a guy about to make 8 figures was dumped for nothing was because nobody wanted him at that price for what he is. Fangraphs has him and Brian Roberts at the same WAR last year, and I believe them. And he'll make about what Roberts made last year, this year.

Darren O'Day is as good as Johnson, maybe better, and he signed a two year contract for 43 dollars in Canadian pennies and a used Karl Malone Chia Pet. But people are fine pissing away resources on Jim Johnson.

You're missing that the orioles should have known last year they were not going to pay 10M for Johnson this year. Because of that why not trade him after he had 2 really good years. We knew he would only stand to gain more in arbitration and the chances were he couldn't reproduce another similar season.

[tntoriole]

Hey now that sounds like some awesome Orioles style "resource allocation"...spend $ on 5-10 guys that will make little to no difference just to avoid giving someone (aka a difference maker) a big contract.

I don't agree with baseball economics. I think the system sucks. But the reality is top guys want 5-7 years for $100-200M dollars. If you aren't willing to pay that you are in the wrong business. Or better get used to not winning and merely milk your dedicated fanbase with false hope.

When the only way you can win relies on miracles or unsustainable oddities (e.g. going 27-9 in one run games)...you have little to no shot at sustained success on a high level.

Or rely on Nolan Reimold. It seems ok to just throw away a million dollars for absolutely no production ,the Jair Jurrgens of the universe, but not ok to pay a guy who has been nothing but an Oriole and an All Star 10 million during a narrowing window of maybe winning it all once in 30 years.

[bt12483]

Instead of spending the whole $10M in an effort to acquire an impact player, that $10M will more likely be allocated as follows:$1M/$1M/$1M/$1M/$1M/$2M/$3M on a bunch of nobodies.

[webbrick2010]

You're missing that the orioles should have known last year they were not going to pay 10M for Johnson this year. Because of that why not trade him after he had 2 really good years. We knew he would only stand to gain more in arbitration and the chances were he couldn't reproduce another similar season.

And what is the plan with JJ Hardy??? If he has another season like last year he will be looking for a 4/60 type contract as a minimum. The Orioles need to extend or trade him this offseason. If they wait one year they will get nothing for him. So what's it going to be DD??? Need to trade all vetrerans and stock up on young cost controlled talent, or push the budget to 120 million and extend some of the present core.

Locking into a 90 million dollar budget is a recipe for dissaster. Need to go young and cheap or bump budget to 120 million. O's have been stuck in the middle for 15 years.

[Guest]

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/hot-stove-jacoby-ellsbury-scott-kazmir-jim-johnson-craig-gentry-luke-gregerson-a%27s-orioles-tigers-rockies-rays-120313

This is so great more and more people coming out dogging the Owner.

[Number5]

So now the Yanks have gotten the best catcher on the market in McCann, picked up Ellsbury for a ridiculously high contract, and all reports are that they still have the money for Robby Cano.

Meanwhile, the Orioles have traded their All-Star, 100 save pitcher for salary relief, and picked up a bunch of no name "depth" for the organization.

I hate to say it, but we're looking at a fight for 4th place with the Jays again. We have missed our opportunity, and it's become painfully obvious that Angelos is not willing to allow the payroll to put us over the hump. Now, I'm not a sign all the premiere talent kind of guy, but when we sit back doing NOTHING while the teams ahead of us are continuing to improve, that's where this Management Team loses me.

If you think AJ was angry yesterday, I'd like to see his thoughts now that Ellsbury has doubled his salary and is playing for another enemy, again?

I'm sorry, Dipper, but I'm not sure that I see your point. Did you want us to outbid the Yankees for McCann or offer Ellsbury an even more ridiculous contract than the Yankees did?

Frankly, I took both of those signings as good news. It pretty much takes the Yankees and their big pockets out of contention for the guys we might be looking at. At the same time, we all knew that the Orioles weren't in the market for Cano, and the Ellsbury signing can only serve to drive Cano's price even higher.

Forcing other teams to spend even more on players that we are not in the market for is a good thing for us. They have less to spend on guys we are looking at.

Every voter but one (me, by the way) in FRobby's poll voted to let our 100-save closer go for absolutely nothing, rather than pay him the projected $10.8 million expected from arbitration. I'm not getting your issue with trading him for salary relief, either.

I'm not sure why AJ would be unhappy to see a center-fielder sign with another club at a ridiculously high price. I seriously doubt that he was pushing for the Orioles to sign a second center-fielder, and, besides, it sure gives him a great comp for his next contract negotiation.

It is December 4. There are still plenty of available players at our positions of need and some of our opponents are in the process of overspending on guys that we weren't looking at signing anyway. This really is not a time to panic.

[DrungoHazewood]

From Peter Schmuck:

I don't really get this argument. The Orioles felt that Jim Johnson wasn't worth in excess of $10 million. The vast majority of fans agree with that argument. I would be surprised if Schmuck didn't feel the same way. So if they feel it would be a poor decision to tender him that kind of contract, the fact that the A's were willing to do so doesn't invalidate Duquette's reasoning.

Basically Schmuck is buying into the "if the O's and another team value things differently the O's must be wrong" point of view. Three years ago I totally agree. But I think Duquette has made that less valid.

[osfan83]

I'm sorry, Dipper, but I'm not sure that I see your point. Did you want us to outbid the Yankees for McCann or offer Ellsbury an even more ridiculous contract than the Yankees did?

Frankly, I took both of those signings as good news. It pretty much takes the Yankees and their big pockets out of contention for the guys we might be looking at. At the same time, we all knew that the Orioles weren't in the market for Cano, and the Ellsbury signing can only serve to drive Cano's price even higher.

Forcing other teams to spend even more on players that we are not in the market for is a good thing for us. They have less to spend on guys we are looking at.

Every voter but one (me, by the way) in FRobby's poll voted to let our 100-save closer go for absolutely nothing, rather than pay him the projected $10.8 million expected from arbitration. I'm not getting your issue with trading him for salary relief, either.

I'm not sure why AJ would be unhappy to see a center-fielder sign with another club at a ridiculously high price. I seriously doubt that he was pushing for the Orioles to sign a second center-fielder, and, besides, it sure gives him a great comp for his next contract negotiation.

It is December 4. There are still plenty of available players at our positions of need and some of our opponents are in the process of overspending on guys that we weren't looking at signing anyway. This really is not a time to panic.

Are the Yankees better now with McCann and Ellsbury? And don't kid yourself...the Yankees can still spend on the 2 and 3 million dollar guys the O's are targeting if they want to.

[bt12483]

Basically Schmuck is buying into the "if the O's and another team value things differently the O's must be wrong" point of view. Three years ago I totally agree. But I think Duquette has made that less valid.

If the O's are consistently making below market offers, I would say that their valuation techniques are out-of-whack with mainstream baseball. Or...at least the teams that like to win.

[CA-ORIOLE]

Every voter but one (me, by the way) in FRobby's poll voted to let our 100-save closer go for absolutely nothing, rather than pay him the projected $10.8 million expected from arbitration..

Do you have a link to that poll? Maybe I misread it. Because, I remember voting in it and never had the position that we should just let JJ go for absoloutely nothing. I thought he had some value and we should do exactly what we did.