Oriole players are upset WOW

[weams]

How did Jim Johnson end up being in line for that kind of salary. I mean. It was Jim Johnson. Was it just the saves?

[scOtt]

It all depends on what happens from here.

Yes it does! DD has to step up in spite of Big Peter.

[scOtt]

How did Jim Johnson end up being in line for that kind of salary. I mean. It was Jim Johnson. Was it just the saves?

#15 would look good in Orange and Black.

[Can_of_corn]

How did Jim Johnson end up being in line for that kind of salary. I mean. It was Jim Johnson. Was it just the saves?

That was a lot of it. Wasn't he a Super 2 as well?

[scOtt]

That was a lot of it. Wasn't he a Super 2 as well?

I think I just read he was.

[Barnaby Graves]

You're missing that the orioles should have known last year they were not going to pay 10M for Johnson this year. Because of that why not trade him after he had 2 really good years. We knew he would only stand to gain more in arbitration and the chances were he couldn't reproduce another similar season.

Judging by the posts made the last few days I already know exactly how that theoretical trade would have been received, no matter when it was made.

So after a guy saves 51 games for you in your first winning season since stone was invented, he blows like 2 games and you sell low on him for a worthless piece like [literally any player, everyone here would complain about anyone who could be a realistic return] just so you could avoid paying him in arbitration? Angelos is going to shut the window of contention right on the Orioles' fingers.

So in the middle of your second playoff run since Atlantis was above water, you trade your ALL-STAR CLOSER for [minor league guy or two]? After he's recovered and saved his last 6 straight games? Who's going to close games for us now, Tommy Hunter??? BUT HOME RUNS.

ANGELOOOOOOOOSSSSSSSSSSSSS

From the whiner perspective, there was never an opportune time to make this trade. People have no concept of budgeting or value and think that money inherently wins championships and because Peter Angelos won a bunch of lawsuits and the Orioles charge $6.00 a beer that you can magically turn that into a free agent's 8 year contract and if a guy is even remotely good he's instantly worth spending double his value to keep around because of a useless, worthless, terrible stat invented to help sell newspapers and baseball cards. They will ***** whenever we sign someone who isn't getting $100+ million, they will ***** whenever another team does sign that guy to a 9 figure deal, they will make a thread called "If I Were GM This Offseason" and plan on signing the top two free agents and they will always crow if one of those guys does well and will always forget they wanted to sign a guy who OPS'd .767 last year in the first year of a contract which will pay him $30,000,000 to play baseball at age 41, they will make threads about their plans and criticize Peter Angelos while ignoring the fact that if they had been GM for a decade, the Orioles' 2013 payroll would be $250 million for like a 55-win team because Johan Santana was being paid $26 million by them to eat gold-plated Belgian chocolates in a hot tub full of Cristal while his replacement, Roy Halladay, somehow wasn't pitching as well in 2013 as he had when the time traded for and resigned him to a 10 year deal in 2003. Was there a surer thing than Matt Kemp owning the world of baseball going into 2012? Is there a surer thing now than Matt Kemp not being worth 40 gazillion or whatever he is owed? How many Brian Roberts's, Nick Markakis's, Matt Kemps, Michael Gonzalez's's's'es'zz, Josh Hamiltons, can a franchise sustain and still win? Is it possible the Rays win because they don't make a lot of long term investments, not in spite of it? Because instead of paying a Jim Johnson $11 million to close they'll pay Fernando Rodney a few million, dump him when he gets expensive, and scout the next guy to pitch 60 innings for $1.5 million?

If Jim Johnson pitches as well as he did last year, he will be worth about 0.9 WAR. As a simplistic thought experiment, if he tripled his innings and pitched the same way, he'd be worth 2.7 WAR for 211 innings of work. If you tripled his pay for the extra work, he'd be making $32.4 million (or thereabouts) to produce 2.7 WAR as a starter. I know someone will criticize the methodology but I don't see the flaw because my point is, why in the hell would you pay a guy $12 million per WAR, at any position, ever.

Just so sick of the complaining around here. I don't want a bloated budget. I want a lean team with guys who AREN'T making a lot, who aren't comfortable, who are therefore young, hungry, angry, emotional, aren't set in their ways, are less prone to injury, and are easily replacable if they are hurt or suddenly ineffective. The more I watch sports the less I believe in sure things and long term guys. And as I've watched sports contracts have gotten huge, and guys who are no more sure things than they were a few decades ago are tying budgetary rocks around their team's necks. Yeah, I'll say it, for $11 million I'd rather sign a bunch of "garbage nobody" relievers to fill out the minor leagues, because I think you're more likely to see garbage nobodies because Miguel Gonzalez and Jeremy Guthrie and Tommy Hunter and produce MORE WINS FOR LESS MONEY than one "star reliever" would. Extend that to any player. You know who would've produced more than Nick Markakis last year? A replacement level player. Nick Markakis was paid for 3 WAR and produced about -0.1. And he kept playing because he was being paid for 3 WAR. I'm glad everyone here likes that system. I don't.

[weams]

I think I just read he was.

Well that is something to keep in mind. For the future.

[weams]

Judging by the posts made the last few days I already know exactly how that theoretical trade would have been received, no matter when it was made.

From the whiner perspective, there was never an opportune time to make this trade. People have no concept of budgeting or value and think that money inherently wins championships and because Peter Angelos won a bunch of lawsuits and the Orioles charge $6.00 a beer that you can magically turn that into a free agent's 8 year contract and if a guy is even remotely good he's instantly worth spending double his value to keep around because of a useless, worthless, terrible stat invented to help sell newspapers and baseball cards. They will ***** whenever we sign someone who isn't getting $100+ million, they will ***** whenever another team does sign that guy to a 9 figure deal, they will make a thread called "If I Were GM This Offseason" and plan on signing the top two free agents and they will always crow if one of those guys does well and will always forget they wanted to sign a guy who OPS'd .767 last year in the first year of a contract which will pay him $30,000,000 to play baseball at age 41, they will make threads about their plans and criticize Peter Angelos while ignoring the fact that if they had been GM for a decade, the Orioles' 2013 payroll would be $250 million for like a 55-win team because Johan Santana was being paid $26 million by them to eat gold-plated Belgian chocolates in a hot tub full of Cristal while his replacement, Roy Halladay, somehow wasn't pitching as well in 2013 as he had when the time traded for and resigned him to a 10 year deal in 2003. Was there a surer thing than Matt Kemp owning the world of baseball going into 2012? Is there a surer thing now than Matt Kemp not being worth 40 gazillion or whatever he is owed? How many Brian Roberts's, Nick Markakis's, Matt Kemps, Michael Gonzalez's's's'es'zz, Josh Hamiltons, can a franchise sustain and still win? Is it possible the Rays win because they don't make a lot of long term investments, not in spite of it? Because instead of paying a Jim Johnson $11 million to close they'll pay Fernando Rodney a few million, dump him when he gets expensive, and scout the next guy to pitch 60 innings for $1.5 million?

If Jim Johnson pitches as well as he did last year, he will be worth about 0.9 WAR. As a simplistic thought experiment, if he tripled his innings and pitched the same way, he'd be worth 2.7 WAR for 211 innings of work. If you tripled his pay for the extra work, he'd be making $32.4 million (or thereabouts) to produce 2.7 WAR as a starter. I know someone will criticize the methodology but I don't see the flaw because my point is, why in the hell would you pay a guy $12 million per WAR, at any position, ever.

Just so sick of the complaining around here. I don't want a bloated budget. I want a lean team with guys who AREN'T making a lot, who aren't comfortable, who are therefore young, hungry, angry, emotional, aren't set in their ways, are less prone to injury, and are easily replacable if they are hurt or suddenly ineffective. The more I watch sports the less I believe in sure things and long term guys. And as I've watched sports contracts have gotten huge, and guys who are no more sure things than they were a few decades ago are tying budgetary rocks around their team's necks. Yeah, I'll say it, for $11 million I'd rather sign a bunch of "garbage nobody" relievers to fill out the minor leagues, because I think you're more likely to see garbage nobodies because Miguel Gonzalez and Jeremy Guthrie and Tommy Hunter and produce MORE WINS FOR LESS MONEY than one "star reliever" would. Extend that to any player. You know who would've produced more than Nick Markakis last year? A replacement level player. Nick Markakis was paid for 3 WAR and produced about -0.1. And he kept playing because he was being paid for 3 WAR. I'm glad everyone here likes that system. I don't.

This is one of the most exotically sparkling posts that I have ever read. Bravo.

[scOtt]

Well that is something to keep in mind. For the future.

Always. I'm educated guessing that was AM's mistake? IIRC he got lucky by days on MW being Super 2.

[scOtt]

This is one of the most exotically sparkling posts that I have ever read. Bravo.

[weams]

"I think that's natural when you have changes to your club or to your roster. I think the important thing for our players and our fans to know is that we're going to do everything we can to have a competitive team here year in and year out. When I talk about reallocating the resources, if I trade a pitcher for an infielder and the infielder makes $10 million less than the pitcher I traded, then I have $10 million to go out and staff the team in other areas, to sign players with. So, I would ask people to wait until we're done shaping our ballclub here for the 2014 season. We have some time to do it. We're returning a really good ballclub on the field, and our challenge will be to surround those core players with some good complimentary players, so we need to find a solution for left field and we need to find somebody to DH and we need to continue to build the pitching staff."

http://www.masnsports.com/school_of_roch/2013/12/because-i-asked-duquette.html' rel="external nofollow">

Dan Duquette

[clapdiddy]

"I think that's natural when you have changes to your club or to your roster. I think the important thing for our players and our fans to know is that we're going to do everything we can to have a competitive team here year in and year out. When I talk about reallocating the resources, if I trade a pitcher for an infielder and the infielder makes $10 million less than the pitcher I traded, then I have $10 million to go out and staff the team in other areas, to sign players with. So, I would ask people to wait until we're done shaping our ballclub here for the 2014 season. We have some time to do it. We're returning a really good ballclub on the field, and our challenge will be to surround those core players with some good complimentary players, so we need to find a solution for left field and we need to find somebody to DH and we need to continue to build the pitching staff."

http://www.masnsports.com/school_of_roch/2013/12/because-i-asked-duquette.html' rel="external nofollow">

Dan Duquette

So...reading this make me think the Choo, Cruz, Jimenez stuff from Morosi is a bunch of hooey. But, I guess DD might keep 'em guessing.

[Can_of_corn]

Always. I'm educated guessing that was AM's mistake? IIRC he got lucky by days on MW being Super 2.

Lucky?

Luck wasn't involved.

Remember how he got called up in the middle of a homestand?

They were watching and knew what day they could safely call him up.

No way in the world would they let a #1 prospect, who was also a Boras client, get super 2 status.

[Dipper9]

"I think that's natural when you have changes to your club or to your roster. I think the important thing for our players and our fans to know is that we're going to do everything we can to have a competitive team here year in and year out. When I talk about reallocating the resources, if I trade a pitcher for an infielder and the infielder makes $10 million less than the pitcher I traded, then I have $10 million to go out and staff the team in other areas, to sign players with. So, I would ask people to wait until we're done shaping our ballclub here for the 2014 season. We have some time to do it. We're returning a really good ballclub on the field, and our challenge will be to surround those core players with some good complimentary players, so we need to find a solution for left field and we need to find somebody to DH and we need to continue to build the pitching staff."

http://www.masnsports.com/school_of_roch/2013/12/because-i-asked-duquette.html' rel="external nofollow">

Dan Duquette

Well, at least this gives me comfort in knowing that Duke "gets it." What doesn't comfort me is what he isn't saying, which is, "I am handcuffed by an owner who won't let us sign the best players available for our holes."

[scOtt]

"I think that's natural when you have changes to your club or to your roster. I think the important thing for our players and our fans to know is that we're going to do everything we can to have a competitive team here year in and year out. When I talk about reallocating the resources, if I trade a pitcher for an infielder and the infielder makes $10 million less than the pitcher I traded, then I have $10 million to go out and staff the team in other areas, to sign players with. So, I would ask people to wait until we're done shaping our ballclub here for the 2014 season. We have some time to do it. We're returning a really good ballclub on the field, and our challenge will be to surround those core players with some good complimentary players, so we need to find a solution for left field and we need to find somebody to DH and we need to continue to build the pitching staff."

http://www.masnsports.com/school_of_roch/2013/12/because-i-asked-duquette.html' rel="external nofollow">

Dan Duquette

"That perception that the team is lowering payroll, that's not accurate. That's not the case. The team has increased payroll in past years and is prepared to do that again this year."

We'll see...