Roch: Penn Cut

[bej6789]

I think sending Penn down was the right move. He was absolutely dominant in 2006 with a 2.2 ERA over 87 innings. Not really including last year, he's still 24years old. Plenty of time to let him develop, and plenty of time to let him earn his spot back up here based on an extended performance more so than his efforts against largely backup or out of tune players. Let the guys like Liz, Mccrory, Olsen, Penn all get innings in AAA... then as spots become available (with this team, theres not a doubt in my mind there will be spots), they're filled with the youngsters. No point in having them in the bullpen. The Oriole way worked great 20 years ago, but this is a new ballgame now.

[RShack]

If he goes to Norfolk and buckles down, pitches well, and stays healthy, then he's gonna come back up, take somebody's job away, and get a whole bunch of starts this year.

[clarence]

Ol' Prospecter is only trying to cause problems. I would bet anything that he sits around and laughs that people take his comments seriously.

[Hank Scorpio]

I think that's EXACTLY what he's saying. It's pretty easy to come off certain in your proclamations when you don't have to worry about any evidence that may tell you what you don't want to hear.

Right, I'm just trying to get his argument straight, that's all. It just doesn't really add up to me.

[NewMarketSean]

Lets make a poll! Has OldFan seen Hayden Penn pitch?

I'd say OldFan has seen Penn pitch for a total of 3-6 innings. But let's remember he only needs to see them for 30 seconds to know their future. He's like Christopher Walken from the Dead Zone.

[Old#5fan]

But he tripped once! And forgot a bag. Malcontent!

Because you have kindly helped me out some other threads I am going to document this for at least the third or fourth time on this thread for your benefit and knowlege as well as several others here (Hank Scorpio are you reading this?) who seem to be happily adopting the unholy practice of piling on a poster (me) when they think they have him down. Here are my reasons why I think Penn is at best a questionable prospect at this point and why he has fallen in estimation by the Orioles organization as a leading prospect:

1. Arrogantly, cockily, or what ever you want to term it assumed he had a spot sewed up and then promptly proceeded to pitch like crap the entire grapefruit season. Had to be sternly lectured by Perlozzo (admonished) and point blank told he had earned nothing and then was sent back down

2. Missed the team bus by stupidly (or at the very least irresponsibly) assuming someone had picked up his bag. Again, was admonished by the team.

3. Tripped over his bag while simply walking down a flight of stairs. While accidents can happen to anyone, this one caused him enough injury that it derailed him from pitching. Again, not too bright and at best, extremely careless.

When you view all three of these negative incidents as a whole (not just separately) they form a view of Penn that is lets say, less than impressive. Couple that with his less than stellar pitching performances lately and his freak injuries and it is easy to see why his perception as a top prospect has declined.

Now, I didn't pull these things out of the air, and it is true they are not based on me watching him pitch, but they are reasons nonetheless, and they also happen to coincide with exactly what seems to be occuring as far as the Orioles handling of him.

So grossly exaggerating my take on this is not only uncalled for but I would think a sign of deliberately ignoring repeated posts where I have emphatically stated that he has had at least the three strikes dilineated above working against him.

I will also point out that Number One is the most significant and probably has hurt him the most and that he has only to blame on his own ego/immaturity. Yet, for some reason some really good posters here including you Wedge, are totally ignoring my mentioning of that and focusing only on the tripping and bag incidents which were items two and three of the combined negative incidents.

[Mackus]

Now, I didn't pull these things out of the air, and it is true they are not based on me watching him pitch, but they are reasons nonetheless, and they also happen to coincide with exactly what seems to be occuring as far as the Orioles handling of him.

Did you not read any of MacPhail or Trembley's comments on the club's handling of Penn? They're reasons couldn't have any less to do with the nonsense you are babbling about.

Your extremely long-jumped-to conclusions have no basis in the club's actual perspective of Penn.

[NewMarketSean]

So two possible fluke accidents are causing you to write Penn off? Man, I hope you go easier than that on your kids, if you have any.

Don't forget that Cal missed a plane once.

[Old#5fan]

Did you not read any of MacPhail or Trembley's comments on the club's handling of Penn? They're reasons couldn't have any less to do with the nonsense you are babbling about.

Your extremely long-jumped-to conclusions have no basis in the club's actual perspective of Penn.

I say they do. You act like they have just overlooked everything in the past. Do you have any absolute evidence of this other than Trembely's comments? What else do you expect Trembley to say, that Penn ought to hang it up? Of course he is going to publicly support him, or say nothing. He has little choice.

[Mackus]

I say they do. You act like they have just overlooked everything in the past. Do you have any absolute evidence of this other than Trembely's comments? What else do you expect Trembley to say, that Penn ought to hang it up? Of course he is going to publicly support him, or say nothing. He has little choice.

So the lack of evidence contradicting your point is your proof?

Explain how that type of logic is even remotely rationale, and go ahead and ignore for the time that there actually is evidence directly contradicting your opinions.

[Old#5fan]

So two possible fluke accidents are causing you to write Penn off? Man, I hope you go easier than that on your kids, if you have any.

Don't forget that Cal missed a plane once.

Again, I have consistently documented a combination of three well publicized incidents, not just two "fluke" accidents as you inaccurately state. Do you actually read my posts or just skim them for what you want to see?

[Hank Scorpio]

Because you have kindly helped me out some other threads I am going to document this for at least the third or fourth time on this thread for you benefit and knowlege as well as several others here (Hank Scorpio are you reading this?) who seem to be happily adopting the unholy practice of piling on a poster (me) when they think they have him down. Here are my reasons why I think Penn is at best a questionable prospect at this point and why he has fallen in estimation by the Orioles organization as a leading prospect:

1. Arrogantly, cockily, or what ever you want to term it assumed he had a spot sewed up and then promptly proceeded to pitch like crap the entire grapefruit season. Had to be sternly lectured by Perlozzo (admonished) and point blank told he had earned nothing and then was sent back down

2. Missed the team bus by stupidly (or at the very least irresponsibly) assuming someone had picked up his bag. Again, was admonished by the team.

3. Tripped over his bag while simply walking down a flight of stairs. While accidents can happen to anyone, this one caused him enough injury that it derailed him from pitching. Again, not too bright and at best, extremely careless.

When you view all three of these negative incidents as a whole (not just separately) they form a view of Penn that is lets say, less than impressive. Couple that with his less than stellar pitching performances lately and his freak injuries and it is easy to see why his perception as a top prospect has declined.

Now, I didn't pull these things out of the air, and it is true they are not based on me watching him pitch, but they are reasons nonetheless, and they also happen to coincide with exactly what seems to be occuring as far as the Orioles handling of him.

So grossly exaggerating my take on this is not only uncalled for but I would think a sign of deliberately ignoring repeated posts where I have emphatically stated that he has had at least the three strikes dilineated above working against him.

I will also point out that Number One is the most significant and probably has hurt him the most and that he has only to blame on his own ego/immaturity. Yet, for some reason some really good posters here including you Wedge, are totally ignoring my mentioning of that and focusing only on the tripping and bag incidents which were items two and three of the combined negative incidents.

I'm not piling on you, my friend. I'm just trying to get your argument straight.

You said that you prefer to evaluate players with your own two eyes as opposed through statistics. You said the following :

I don't post like that. I always explain my posts but apparently some here don't take the time to read them all but rather choose to jump to wrong conclusions. I always give my reasons why I like or dislike a player. You are dead wrong if you think otherwise. Now, maybe I don't post a bunch of stats but I don't need stats to prove what I can see with my own two eyes! And besides not giving stats doesn't necessarily equate to not giving a valid reason..

I was just asking how many times you have witnessed Penn pitch with your own two eyes, that's all!!!

[Old#5fan]

So the lack of evidence contradicting your point is your proof?

Explain how that type of logic is even remotely rationale, and go ahead and ignore for the time that there actually is evidence directly contradicting your opinions.

There is no evidence other than Trembley's quotes which to me are just spin to try to counter the negativity surrounding this kid. I don't think Perlozzo thought much of Penn and perhaps Trembley was trying to undo the publicly documented admonishment by Perlozzo that seems to be following Penn like a dark shadow at least as far as media treatment of this kid. (Be honest he has not fared well in previous articles - no way can you say he has).

There is no actual evidence. I don't know what you are talking about? You state things and offer no support other than one article where Trembley shows a glimmer of support. Penn has fallen from grace period. He has also not been pitching all that well either. These are established and well documented observations. If you choose not to believe them fine, but don't tell me that I am not being rational because the reality is that Penn is no longer a top prospect. That is beyond dispute and is also stated in the article where is is described as a "former" top prospect.

[Crazysilver03]

There is no evidence other than Trembley's quotes which to me are just spin to try to counter the negativity surrounding this kid. I don't think Perlozzo thought much of Penn and perhaps Trembley was trying to undo the publicly documented admonishment by Perlozzo that seems to be following Penn like a dark shadow at least as far as media treatment of this kid. (Be honest he has not fared well in previous articles - no way can you say he has).

There is no actual evidence. I don't know what you are talking about? You state things and offer no support other than one article where Trembley shows a glimmer of support. Penn has fallen from grace period. He has also not been pitching all that well either. These are established and well documented observations. If you choose not to believe them fine, but don't tell me that I am not being rationale because Penn is no longer a top prospect. That is beyond dispute.

So your evidence (which is from the past) is valid. But the evidence from Trembley that is new isnt valid because you say it isnt.

[Old#5fan]

So your evidence (which is from the past) is valid. But the evidence from Trembley that is new isnt valid because you say it isnt.

I might believe Trembley if Penn was in the ML rotation or at least in the bullpen. Until then, it is just spin to appear not to be throwing him under the bus. Of course Trembley is not going to publicly hang him out to dry. It would be the seal of doom for Penn's career!