Is there any legitimate reason for Mike Mussina to go into the HOF as a Yankee instead of an Oriole?

[Aristotelian]

No it's not. They changed the policy in 2001. At the time, it was rumored Wade "Margo" Boggs had an incentive in his deal to go into Cooperstown with TB.

I had to look this up out of curiousity. Apparently it is up to the Hall but the custom is to seek input from the player.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=lukas/interview/090723

[25 Nuggets]

He was never even in the running. Closest he got was #2 in 1994 (zero votes for 1st place), but Pedro had nearly half Mussina's ERA and double his K's. Other than that, a handful of #4 and #5, but never really a serious CY candidate.

4th and 5th places aren't being a serious CY candidate? I disagree.

[JR Oriole]

I'm sorry you feel that way.

I think my heart changed when I read up on what the Orioles did to BJ Surhoff, getting rid of him after he pleaded to stay because his daughter needed treatment at John Hopkins Hospital. Mussina stormed out of Surhoff's tearful press conference saying something to the effect of "I'm never playing for the Orioles again". There was a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes with those teams.

Wow I had NO IDEA about this. I couldn't remember why we didn't keep Surhoff then. I loved that guy....played great with us for years and was pissed off even after he got hits. Kind of like Paul O'Neill. Those are the players I love.

[BMann]

I can't make the case that Mussina is a first round slam dunk, because he isn't.

On the other hand, he deserves to be in the HOF, in my opinion, and that opinion is very disputed here in OH, because of the hurt that some fans still harbor.

And I freely confess that I'm one of those grudge-holding fans. But, taking off my anti-Mussina glasses, I still say he's firmly on the border. It's not entirely his fault that he didn't hit any of those marks (especially the lack of a ring), but that's how sports work. The most deserving don't always win... and such "games of inches" can be the difference between HOF Career and Really Strong Career.

[25 Nuggets]

Wow I had NO IDEA about this. I couldn't remember why we didn't keep Surhoff then. I loved that guy....played great with us for years and was pissed off even after he got hits. Kind of like Paul O'Neill. Those are the players I love.

Here's an article from when the trade occurred about the press conference, though no mention of Mussina:

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2000-08-01/sports/0008010191_1_surhoff-orioles-tears

"It's my career," B. J. Surhoff was saying, rubbing his eyes between thoughts as he tried to keep his composure, "but it gets much more complicated by things that are important to me. Very important to me."

Correction, it was his son not daughter, getting treatment for Autism. This was during the famous Syd Thrift "confederate money" purge.

[SeaBird]

If Mussina makes the hall of fame, the decision of whether to go into the hall as a Yankee or Oriole is his to make and really none of our business or concern.

It is not his decision to make. While the Hall may entertain his preference, they will decide what hat, if any, he will wear. If it was his decision he would go in as a Yankee because of the way the Orioles FO jerked him around.

[Redskins Rick]

He was never even in the running. Closest he got was #2 in 1994 (zero votes for 1st place), but Pedro had nearly half Mussina's ERA and double his K's. Other than that, a handful of #4 and #5, but never really a serious CY candidate.

So you penalize the man, because he was second best to Pedro, when Pedro had a career year?

[TABLE]

<colgroup><col style="mso-width-source:userset;mso-width-alt:6599;width:139pt" width="186"> <col style="width:48pt" width="64"> </colgroup><tbody>[TR]

[TD=class: xl63, width: 186]Pedro Martinez [/TD]

[TD=width: 64, align: right]2000[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: xl63, width: 186]Pedro Martinez [/TD]

[TD=align: right]1999[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: xl63, width: 186]Roger Clemens [/TD]

[TD=align: right]1998[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: xl63, width: 186]Roger Clemens[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1997[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: xl63, width: 186]Pat Hentgen[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1996[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: xl63, width: 186]Randy Johnson[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1995[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: xl63, width: 186]David Cone [/TD]

[TD=align: right]1994[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: xl63, width: 186]Jack McDowell[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1993[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: xl63, width: 186]Dennis Eckersley[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1992[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: xl63, width: 186]Roger Clemens[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1991[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: xl63, width: 186]Bob Welch [/TD]

[TD=align: right]1990[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: xl63, width: 186]Bret Saberhagen [/TD]

[TD=align: right]1989[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: xl63, width: 186]Frank Viola[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1988[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: xl63, width: 186]Roger Clemens[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1987[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: xl63, width: 186]Roger Clemens [/TD]

[TD=align: right]1986[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: xl63, width: 186]Bret Saberhagen[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1985[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: xl63, width: 186]Willie Hernandez[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1984[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: xl63, width: 186]LaMarr Hoyt [/TD]

[TD=align: right]1983[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: xl63, width: 186]Pete Vuckovich[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1982[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: xl63, width: 186]Rollie Fingers [/TD]

[TD=align: right]1981[/TD]

[/TR]

</tbody>[/TABLE]

[DrungoHazewood]

And Jim Rice was just recently elected by the BBWAA. And their reasoning was really odd. "Most feared hitter of his generation" over and over again. It's all just a political campaign. So that's the game the saber-heads have been playing too. Hey, it got Bert Blyleven in.

At least the so-called saber-heads used reasonably objective evidence to bolster Blyleven's case. Instead of made up stories. Maybe one day I'll accept the fact that the Hall is not a place for the best players by any rational argument, just the ones with the best stories.

[DrungoHazewood]

And I freely confess that I'm one of those grudge-holding fans. But, taking off my anti-Mussina glasses, I still say he's firmly on the border. It's not entirely his fault that he didn't hit any of those marks (especially the lack of a ring), but that's how sports work. The most deserving don't always win... and such "games of inches" can be the difference between HOF Career and Really Strong Career.

Except by the standard of quality of his performances Mussina laps many actual HOFers. By most measures he's better than an average HOF starting pitcher. Inducting him raises the quality of the Hall.

[JR Oriole]

Here's an article from when the trade occurred about the press conference, though no mention of Mussina:

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2000-08-01/sports/0008010191_1_surhoff-orioles-tears

Correction, it was his son not daughter, getting treatment for Autism. This was during the famous Syd Thrift "confederate money" purge.

I actually think I blocked that whole period out of my memory after Tony Fernandez put me in a 14 year coma.....Andino knocked me out of it on the last day of the 2011 season. Man we were bad news back then. Other than the enormous stupidity and weak effort of this offseason, I am sure glad we are a much better organization now than back then. I am still jealous of the Cardinals though (since they are literally always good)....must be rough sledding being a fan of that team every year!

[Frobby]

See: Curt Schilling.

Schilling will get in, IMO, and probably before Mussina. Moose won more games (270 to 216) and had a higher winning percentage (.638 to .597), but Schilling had a slightly better ERA+, won 20 games three times, and had some very memorable World Series performances. He hasn't gotten in yet because there was a wave of really great pitchers wh0 al retired in a 2 year period. But both he and Moose will get in sometime in the next several years, IMO. There isn't another wave of great starting pitchers coming up behind them in the near to medium term. In the next five years, the viable first time eligible HOFers are Rivera (who will surely get in, but is a reliever), Halladay and Pettitte. Not on the level of the guys who got elected the last few years.

[Redskins Rick]

And I freely confess that I'm one of those grudge-holding fans. But, taking off my anti-Mussina glasses, I still say he's firmly on the border. It's not entirely his fault that he didn't hit any of those marks (especially the lack of a ring), but that's how sports work. The most deserving don't always win... and such "games of inches" can be the difference between HOF Career and Really Strong Career.

I would say that era of PAG and the Orioles was not exactly a good place to be, even while they were winning, things behind the scene wasn't the best in the world.

Yes, I know, those that know the man, claim he isn't the best guy to be around.

IMO, Angelos made an gentleman's agreement, if Mussina would sign a one year home town contract. He would take care of him. For which, Mussina was taken to the shed by the Player's association.

Peter knew kept his promise. Yes I know, some say that he never gave the team a chance, and I am not naive enough to say that isn't true.

But, damnit, that is old history and time to bury the hatchet. This is clearly not the same owner, and the FO is well respected by his peers and the players want to play here.

[TonySoprano]

I would say that era of PAG and the Orioles was not exactly a good place to be, even while they were winning, things behind the scene wasn't the best in the world.

Yes, I know, those that know the man, claim he isn't the best guy to be around.

IMO, Angelos made an gentleman's agreement, if Mussina would sign a one year home town contract. He would take care of him. For which, Mussina was taken to the shed by the Player's association.

Peter knew kept his promise. Yes I know, some say that he never gave the team a chance, and I am not naive enough to say that isn't true.

But, damnit, that is old history and time to bury the hatchet. This is clearly not the same owner, and the FO is well respected by his peers and the players want to play here.

Since we're going down memory lane and not dealing with the cap question posed in the OP, Mussina wanted a five-year deal. The Orioles told him they don't give out that kind of a deal to a pitcher, and signed him for three, then turned around and gave Erickson five years. In 1999, Wren worked out an extension for Mussina with his agent and recommended Angelos sign it. Peter balked, my asssumption being Mussina was still a year away from free agency, but we don't know why Peter refused. The Orioles had their fire sale the following season, further alienating him. Here is what was written at the time.

Not that he's underpaid at $6.825 million a season, under the terms of the three-year, $20.475 million contract he signed before the 1998 season. "I'm well-compensated," he said last spring, showing typical perspective.

But the market for pitchers has changed since he signed, as best evidenced by the $105 million deal the Dodgers gave Kevin Brown last off-season.

Brown has 71 wins since the start of the 1995 season. Mussina has 79.

It's time to right that wrong, and the onus is on the Orioles to do right by their ace.

When Mussina signed his last deal, he did so without testing the free-agent market, and with the Orioles still holding to such financial principles as not giving pitchers long-term deals and not paying anyone more than Cal Ripken.

The resulting deal was labeled a "garden-variety" contract by players union president Don Fehr, and the Braves' Tom Glavine, in the midst of his own negotiations, said, "If [Mussina] wants to sell himself short, that's fine."

Mussina agreed to the terms, of course, so he can't complain. And to his credit, he hasn't -- unlike so many players who get layered over in the same way in baseball's steadily rising salary structure.

"I'm not going to sit around and pout about it," he told The Sun's Joe Strauss this spring.

In any case, the circumstances are different now, radically different. The Orioles have given up on the financial principles that were in effect for Mussina's deal. Scott Erickson signed a five-year contract last season, the longest deal for a pitcher in franchise history. And of course, Albert Belle signed his $65 million budget buster last winter, dwarfing the contracts given every other Oriole in history.

Let's face it, there are times when you just have to swallow and pay top dollar for top talent, and this is one of those times.

Mussina has always been a fine pitcher, as his five trips to the All-Star Game indicate, but he could be on the verge of reaching an even higher level. His one-inning performance in the 1999 All-Star Game, which ended with him striking out Sammy Sosa and Mark McGwire, was nothing if not a validation of his rising place among the game's elite.

Sure, there's always concern about giving long-term deals to pitchers, whose arms can go snap at any minute. The Orioles weren't wrong to avoid such deals before. And Mussina throws hard for someone so slender, seemingly elevating the risk of an injury.

But other than some shoulder soreness in the wake of the 1992 brawl with Seattle and a calcium deposit in his elbow in 1997, Mussina's injuries have been limited to freaks such as a wart on his index finger and a line drive off his forehead.

Basically, he's as sound as a champion thoroughbred that just keeps running.

If any Oriole deserves a headline-making contract, he's the one.

No, he's never had a 20-win season or won a Cy Young Award, but he's one of the few ace-caliber starters still throwing, and you can build a clubhouse around his formidable, old-school mental approach.

He isn't greedy, he wants to play here and he's at the peak of his powers. Don't mess with him. Don't let the negotiations drag, breeding ill will.

Mussina deserves better. When the time comes, just give him what he deserves.

source - John Eisenberg, Baltimore Sun, July 25, 1999

The Baltimore Orioles' current contract offer to pitcher Mike Mussina of $60 million over five years apparently would have completed the deal had the team offered it to him last summer, Mussina said.

"Yeah, I would say [the Orioles' current offer] probably would have gotten it done" last summer, said Mussina, whose current contract expires at the end of this season.

In January, the Orioles opened with an offer of $42.5 million over five years, later increasing it to $50 million. Under the current offer of $60 million, $10 million would be deferred. However, Mussina's price tag has risen steadily the closer he gets to free agency. He now is believed to be seeking a contract worth about $15 million annually over five or six years. There has been no movement in negotiations in at least two weeks.

According to team and league sources, agent Arn Tellem and then-Orioles general manager Frank Wren last summer discussed the parameters of an extension for Mussina. The numbers used by Tellem then to outline Mussina's asking price were roughly the same as the Orioles' current offer, the sources said.

Wren made the proposal to Orioles majority owner Peter Angelos with the recommendation that the team get a deal done immediately, according to sources. But the Orioles made no firm offer until January, at which time Mussina was within a year of free agency and increasingly inclined to wait.

Wren was fired in November and is in arbitration with the team over the remainder of his contract; he declined to comment on the Mussina negotiations. Wren now is the Atlanta Braves' assistant general manager. Angelos did not return phone calls today.

Mussina's current contract, which was negotiated between Angelos and Mussina directly, was signed in May 1997 and pays Mussina $20.45 million over three years. It was immediately criticized by the players' union as being undervalued.

At the time, Mussina was interested in signing for five years, but was told the Orioles would not go longer than three. However, one year later, the Orioles signed pitcher Scott Erickson to a five-year extension.

"I thought it would be logical at that point for them to come to me again," Mussina said, "so they could lock up both of us" for five years.

source - Washington Post, April 18, 2000

[Redskins Rick]

Thanks Tony for the trip, lots of good information there.

The Orioles was not a good place then, this was also the team that let Jon Miller go.

letting Davy go, after consecutive playoff trips.

Lots of mistakes for sure.

[Frobby]

Thanks for that history, TonyS. As you know, I've always felt it was Angelos' fault that Mussina got out of Baltimore, and that he totally jerked Mussina around in the negotiations. Mussina could have swallowed all that and chosen to stay, but I can't blame him for leaving and taking a better deal elsewhere, even in New York.