PED Suspensions Coming

[tntoriole]

7 hours ago, SteveA said:

Shoeless Joe and Pete Rose are not being kept out of the HOF by "HOF voters".   The Hall of Fame does not allow them to be on the ballot because they are banned from baseball.   So no Hall of Fame voter has ever actually done anything to keep them out of the hall.

You are correct.  It is the institution that makes the call.  And, of course, the HOF is a private institution owned by the Clark family that  began it in the 1930s.  That makes the institutional memory even longer, imho...sort of like the Masters tournament and Augusta National.  The Board of Directors includes former Hall of Famers... Joe Morgan as Vice Chairman,  Brooks and Frank Robinson, Ozzie Smith, Phil Niekro, Rob Manfred, Paul Beeston, Jerry Reinsdorf of the White Sox, Bill DeWitt of the Cardinals, David Glass of the Royals...hard to see this policy changing anytime soon. 

[tntoriole]

9 hours ago, Dark Helmet said:

That's fine. I was born and raised in Aberdeen. Opinions of Cal aren't as wholesome as the picture painted. But whatever. I'll leave it at that.

Small towns can sometimes be that way...I live in one myself.  Not saying Cal is an angel and surely has hypocritical parts to his nature as we all do.  But to engage in that behavior?  Given his father?  Given his knowledge of the history of the game? And the risks to his own image that would have been involved?     Nah! 

[Dark Helmet]

29 minutes ago, tntoriole said:

Small towns can sometimes be that way...I live in one myself.  Not saying Cal is an angel and surely has hypocritical parts to his nature as we all do.  But to engage in that behavior?  Given his father?  Given his knowledge of the history of the game? And the risks to his own image that would have been involved?     Nah! 

I'm not saying your wrong. I just have my doubts that's all. It really doesn't tarnish his accomplishments for me. He was never linked to it. 

[Dark Helmet]

51 minutes ago, weams said:

I had the pleasure to hang out with him while he was having a few beers with personal friends of his. Seemed pretty much like you would think a jock like him would be. Pretty normal. 

He was good to his personal friends. Normal people when the spotlight wasn't on him...not so much.

[Snutchy]

I cant believe I just subjected myself to reading this mess. This thread has brought out the dumbest of the dumb. Some of you need to be ashamed of yourselves. 

[ORIOLE33]

2 hours ago, Dark Helmet said:

Shoeless Joe Jackson had a better series than some WS mvp have had. If only everyone could throw a series like that. Shoeless Joe should be in the HOF. 

Didn’t he receive money and knew about the fix?

[glenn__davis]

6 minutes ago, ORIOLE33 said:

Didn’t he receive money and knew about the fix?

Jackson's role in the scandal is very murky.  There are conflicting accounts at the time regarding whether or not he was involved in the fix.  I've read about the story a fair amount and it seems pretty clear to me that he probably knew about it, but I don't think it's so certain that he participated in it.

[theocean]

1 hour ago, Snutchy said:

I cant believe I just subjected myself to reading this mess. This thread has brought out the dumbest of the dumb. Some of you need to be ashamed of yourselves. 

Only the Hangout could have an 8 page thread of speculation about the character of people they know nothing about.

[OFFNY]

On 5/16/2018 at 7:34 AM, Dark Helmet said:

 

Shoeless Joe Jackson had a better series than some World Series MVP's have had. If only everyone could throw a series like that. Shoeless Joe should be in the Hall-of-Fame. 

 

 

 

On 5/16/2018 at 10:13 AM, ORIOLE33 said:

 

Didn’t he receive money, and knew about the fix ???

 

o

 

As a Black Sox expert, the first thing that needs to be said about that entire situation is that there are many things about the entire affair that nobody will ever know for sure (including myself.)

That said, both Joe Jackson and Buck Weaver very likely played to win. In fact, Jackson set what was then a World Series record with 12 hits, batted .375 for the series, hit the only home run of the series for either team, and did not make an error on defense. Similarly, Weaver batted .324, did not make an error on defense, and by all accounts played his best to win (not easy to do, knowing that 6 of your teammates are intentionally throwing games.)

Weaver never took a dime, repeatedly asked for a separate trial from his teammates to prove his innocence (of which he was denied), and appealed to the MLB commissioners (Kenesaw Landis, Happy Chandler, and Ford Frick) every year until his death in 1956 to have himself reinstated (all of his appeal were denied.)

Jackson was given $5,000 in an envelope by his best friend and teammate (Lefty Williams) ........ money that he never asked for, and that he did not want. In fact, he even tried to give the money to the team owner (Charlie Comiskey) and report the entire scandal to him but he was intercepted by Harry Grabiner (Comiskey's secretary), who told Jackson that Comiskey had nothing to say to him (even though he had offered a $10,000 reward for anyone giving him any information on the fix.) At that point, Jackson decided that he simply wasn't going to play in the series because of the fix that he knew that his teammates were complicit in. His manager (Kid Gleason) screamed at Jackson that he would play ....... Gleason's statement was not a prediction or a request, it was a threat. The uneducated, illiterate Jackson buckled under the pressure of his manager and owner, and played all 8 games of the series to the best of his ability, but (like teammate Buck Weaver) was not comfortable in doing so.

As stated before, there are still many aspects of the entire affair that people do not know, and will never find out. However, based on the numerous books, articles, and films that I have read and seen, and the people that I have spoken with (I actually called a man named Gardner Stern on the telephone just before he died in 1996 who lived in Chicago his entire life, and who was 16 years-old at the time of the fix, and I spoke extensively with him about it) Jackson and Weaver both played to win, in spite of the pressure of the situation that was on them.

In regard to Gardner Stern, this man ......

 

A. Saw the first game ever at THE ORIGINAL Comiskey Park in 1910, when he was 6 and-a-half years old.

B. Had his heart broken when it was found out that his beloved White Sox had thrown the 1919 World Series (he in fact went to one of those World Series games against the Reds.) 

 

As I said earlier, his name was Gardner Stern. He was born in 1904, was a life-long White Sox fan, and was a guest in Ken Burns' baseball documentary.

I simply called information for Chicago, Illinois (in 1996), asked for his phone number, and he was nice enough to talk to me for about 20 minutes about the entire Black Sox scandal, plus his lifelong fandom of the White Sox.

 

o

[ORIOLE33]

Thanks for the info OFFNY,

“Eight Men Out” is a great movie and according to what you said, it’s quite accurate.

[Spy Fox]

1 hour ago, theocean said:

Only the Hangout could have an 8 page thread of speculation about the character of people they know nothing about.

Just wait til you see the rest of the internet!

[OFFNY]

3 hours ago, ORIOLE33 said:

 

Thanks for the info, OFFNY.

“Eight Men Out” is a great movie, and according to what you said, it’s quite accurate.

 

o

 

There are a few inaccuracies in the movie, but part of the reason for that was time constraints ....... the movie was on a strict budget, which stipulated that it could not run one second over 2 hours.

 

In addition to the Eight Men Out book (written by Eliot Asinof), I would recommend a 1979 book by Donald Gropman entitled, Say It Ain't So, Joe! ......The Story of Shoeless Joe Jackson. 

Both of them were very emotionally moving for me.

 

 

 oooooooo 

 

o

[Dark Helmet]

3 hours ago, OFFNY said:

 

 

o

 

As a Black Sox expert, the first thing that needs to be said about that entire situation is that there are many things about the entire affair that nobody will ever know for sure (including myself.)

That said, both Joe Jackson and Buck Weaver very likely played to win. In fact, Jackson set what was then a World Series record with 12 hits, batted .375 for the series, hit the only home run of the series for either team, and did not make an error on defense. Similarly, Weaver batted .324, did not make an error on defense, and by all accounts played his best to win (not easy to do, knowing that 6 of your teammates are intentionally throwing games.)

Weaver never took a dime, repeatedly asked for a separate trial from his teammates to prove his innocence (of which he was denied), and appealed to the MLB commissioners (Kenesaw Landis, Happy Chandler, and Ford Frick) every year until his death in 1956 to have himself reinstated (all of his appeal were denied.)

Jackson was given $5,000 in an envelope by his best friend and teammate (Lefty Williams) ........ money that he never asked for, and that he did not want. In fact, he even tried to give the money to the team owner (Charlie Comiskey) and report the entire scandal to him but he was intercepted by Harry Grabiner (Comiskey's secretary), who told Jackson that Comiskey had nothing to say to him (even though he had offered a $10,000 reward for anyone giving him any information on the fix.) At that point, Jackson decided that he simply wasn't going to play in the series because of the fix that he knew that his teammates were complicit in. His manager (Kid Gleason) screamed at Jackson that he would play ....... Gleason's statement was not a prediction or a request, it was a threat. The uneducated, illiterate Jackson buckled under the pressure of his manager and owner, and played all 8 games of the series to the best of his ability, but (like teammate Buck Weaver) was not comfortable in doing so.

As stated before, there are still many aspects of the entire affair that people do not know, and will never find out. However, based on the numerous books, articles, and films that I have read and seen, and the people that I have spoken with (I actually called a man named Gardner Stern on the telephone just before he died in 1996 who lived in Chicago his entire life, and who was 15 years-old at the time of the fix, and I spoke extensively with him about it) Jackson and Weaver both played to win, in spite of the pressure of the situation that was on them.

In regard to Gardner Stern, this man ......

 

A. Saw the first game ever at THE ORIGINAL Comiskey Park in 1910, when he was 5 and-a-half years old.

B. Had his heart broken when it was found out that his beloved White Sox had thrown the 1919 World Series (he in fact went to one of those World Series games against the Reds.) 

 

As I said earlier, his name was Gardner Stern. He was born in 1904, was a life-long White Sox fan, and was a guest in Ken Burns' baseball documentary.

I simply called information for Chicago, Illinois (in 1996), asked for his phone number, and he was nice enough to talk to me for about 20 minutes about the entire Black Sox scandal, plus his lifelong fandom of the White Sox.

 

o

Very good information. That's where I'm at. I believe Jackson knew about it, but wanted no part of it and played to win. His numbers prove that.

[Rich Mac]

21 hours ago, tntoriole said:

I was listening to an audiobook today driving home from Cooperstown where I spent this last weekend at the HOF...it was Luckiest Man, the bio of Lou Gehrig by Jonathan Eig.   He wanted to win too.   As did all of those guys in Cooperstown with plaques.  And none of these guys using PEDS will ever join any of those guys.  So...I hope it was worth it for them.  But it is hard to see how. 

I don't doubt for a minute that many of those legends in the HOF were using PEDs or were at the very least trying to use PEDs. They may not be PEDs like we know them today, but they were injecting and taking pills that they hoped would enhance their performance beyond natural levels. 

I'm not trying to judge those guys, but I find it slightly hypocritical that many modern players are labeled as cheaters or amoral when they are just continuing the tradition. The biggest difference though is that there is now a rule that does not allow the use of PEDs when there was no rule prior to the '60s? - I'm not certain when the rule was enacted by MLB, so feel free to correct me if that's wrong.

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=12037385

Quote

 Even the Big Bambino himself, Babe Ruth, injected himself with extract from a sheep's testicles, hoping for increased power at the plate (and in the bedroom). He attempted this only once, and it made him incredibly ill; the Yankees covered the story by telling the press that the Babe just had one of his famous bellyaches. Even though the Yankees tend to celebrate all things Babe Ruth, they have never, to my knowledge, had "Sheep Testicles Day" at the stadium.

 

[Beef Supreme]

On 5/15/2018 at 8:02 PM, Fuzzball22 said:

How big of a surprise would it be if it came out that Cal was using Peds?

this big.