Projected Orioles Opening Day Payroll 2018

[sportsfan8703]

DD has had a terrible run at spending money. The O'day, Trumbo, Hardy, Davis extensions have been terrible. Then Ubaldo and gallardo were disaster of FA deals. 

DD's best deals are the low risk, not to be counted on, type of deals. Problem is, we need to spend some money on guys we can count on and we keep missing. 

The payroll savings isn't all what we thought it would be. Seems like we have like $20 million to hit on two SP's if we plan to contend next year. 

[AZRon]

Whatever your overall appraisal of Dan Duquette's performance may be, with regard to spending on the O's opening day payroll (ODP), his tenure has been coincident with a remarkable destruction of the justification supporting the characterization of Peter Angelos as a "tightwad".

Since Duquette came on board in November, 2011, O's ODP:
has increased by 87% versus the AL East mark of 38%
deficit versus the Yankees has steadily decreased from $119M to $32M
deficit versus the Red Sox has steadily decreased from $78M to $33M

So, you may be able mount an argument as to the effectiveness or efficiency of the spending, but you can no longer reasonably argue that Angelos refuses to spend competitively on ODP.

[Can_of_corn]

I've always thought the payroll under Angelos was reasonable.  The problem being that, most years, the money wasn't being spent wisely.

[Ohfan67]

2 hours ago, AZRon said:

Whatever your overall appraisal of Dan Duquette's performance may be, with regard to spending on the O's opening day payroll (ODP), his tenure has been coincident with a remarkable destruction of the justification supporting the characterization of Peter Angelos as a "tightwad".

Since Duquette came on board in November, 2011, O's ODP:
has increased by 87% versus the AL East mark of 38%
deficit versus the Yankees has steadily decreased from $119M to $32M
deficit versus the Red Sox has steadily decreased from $78M to $33M

So, you may be able mount an argument as to the effectiveness or efficiency of the spending, but you can no longer reasonably argue that Angelos refuses to spend competitively on ODP.

I agree with Can of Corn's take. Despite the many, many complaints of fans, Angelos has almost always spent money on the team, the Orioles just invest very poorly in mediocre free agents. It's been a recurring pattern under Angelos, for sure.  

[Ohfan67]

BTW, thanks AZRon for posting your work. Good stuff. 

[jtschrei]

Every team can spend more wisely. If you looked at every roster, none would be perfectly efficient. 

That said, the criticism of DD's long-term FA deals is totally justified. They haven't been good. The Davis deal was bad. In many ways the Trumbo deal was worse because everyone could see we had Mancini waiting in the wings. The guy came up in Sept. of 2016 and tore it up. And then we signed Pedro Alvarez to platoon with Mancini only to then turn around and sign Trumbo! What?!?! 

If you are going to have Trumbo, then go ahead and trade Mancini for some pitching. Oh wait, it turns out it's not that easy. Guys who can hit but not play defense are actually not that valuable, even when they are young and super cheap like Mancini. Nothing is more valuable than good starting pitching. 

DD needs to call up his boy Fred Ferreira and get us another guy from the Mexican League and another guy from Taiwan. I don't expect us to pay for top tier FA pitching. I expect more of the time tested Orioles approach -- wait until March and see who hasn't signed yet. Then get involved. 

 

 

 

[wildcard]

2 hours ago, Ohfan67 said:

I agree with Can of Corn's take. Despite the many, many complaints of fans, Angelos has almost always spent money on the team, the Orioles just invest very poorly in mediocre free agents. It's been a recurring pattern under Angelos, for sure.  

I think Peter has funded the team well while Dan has been here.  He didn't spend much from 2000-2011.  

[tntoriole]

No discussion anywhere here yet as to whether any of the budget coming off this winter would go to a Manny extension...it seems as if that has been written off as not going to happen...oh sure, the front office will make a token attempt which will be refused. But if you spend the necessary dollars on 2-3 free agent starting pitching deals , then you can’t have a Manny extension.  And DD better get these deals right or we are looking at a really bad stretch come 2019 season forward. 

[AZRon]

5 minutes ago, bobmc said:

MLB Trade Rumors had this on projections for the O's:....

These were and are reflected in my chart in my opening post

[AZRon]

1 hour ago, tntoriole said:

No discussion anywhere here yet as to whether any of the budget coming off this winter would go to a Manny extension...it seems as if that has been written off as not going to happen...oh sure, the front office will make a token attempt which will be refused. But if you spend the necessary dollars on 2-3 free agent starting pitching deals , then you can’t have a Manny extension.  And DD better get these deals right or we are looking at a really bad stretch come 2019 season forward. 

Since returning to MLB in 1954, the Orioles have had 3 Hall of Fame (HOF) players who spent their entire professional careers with the organization:
Brooks Robinson, Jim Palmer, and Cal Ripken, Jr.

They had 1 HOF player, Eddie Murray, who started with the Oriole organization and was traded away, (while still productive) after 12 years with the team.

They have had 1 potential HOF player, Mike Mussina, who started with the Oriole organization and was lost to free agency (while still productive) after 10 years with the team.

The Orioles played all of their pennant winning, playoff and World Series baseball with one or more of these players.

With good drafting, effective player development and judicious acquisitions, they managed to pay for these HOF players and still field winning teams.

I'd like to see them do that again with Machado.

Wouldn't you?

[Ohfan67]

3 hours ago, wildcard said:

I think Peter has funded the team well while Dan has been here.  He didn't spend much from 2000-2011.  

Man, what do you consider not much? The Orioles were middle of the pack spenders in almost all of those years and were top ten once. $93,554,808 ranked 10th in 2007 for example. One of the problems with Angelos IMO is that he wouldn't agree to a complete rebuild, but instead kept flushing money down the mediocre free agent toilet. 

[tntoriole]

2 hours ago, AZRon said:

Since returning to MLB in 1954, the Orioles have had 3 Hall of Fame (HOF) players who spent their entire professional careers with the organization:
Brooks Robinson, Jim Palmer, and Cal Ripken, Jr.

They had 1 HOF player, Eddie Murray, who started with the Oriole organization and was traded away, (while still productive) after 12 years with the team.

They have had 1 potential HOF player, Mike Mussina, who started with the Oriole organization and was lost to free agency (while still productive) after 10 years with the team.

The Orioles played all of their pennant winning, playoff and World Series baseball with one or more of these players.

With good drafting, effective player development and judicious acquisitions, they managed to pay for these HOF players and still field winning teams.

I'd like to see them do that again with Machado.

Wouldn't you?

I would like to be young again too...it ain't happening, unfortunately.  The key part of that history you cite is the loss of Mussina to free agency because our owner was unwilling to pay as much as Moose got going to NY.  Same owner as now.  He is not going to go for a 300-400 million dollar 10 year contract for Manny.  

[Can_of_corn]

4 minutes ago, Ohfan67 said:

Man, what do you consider not much? The Orioles were middle of the pack spenders in almost all of those years and were top ten once. $93,554,808 ranked 10th in 2007 for example. One of the problems with Angelos IMO is that he wouldn't agree to a complete rebuild, but instead kept flushing money down the mediocre free agent toilet. 

We had one poster who thought it was Angelos' civic duty to operate the Orioles with no expectation of profit.

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, tntoriole said:

I would like to be young again too...it ain't happening, unfortunately.  The key part of that history you cite is the loss of Mussina to free agency because our owner was unwilling to pay as much as Moose got going to NY.  Same owner as now.  He is not going to go for a 300-400 million dollar 10 year contract for Manny.  

Which is hilarious since that contract for Manny is a much better investment than the contract he gave Davis.

[Frobby]

3 hours ago, AZRon said:

Since returning to MLB in 1954, the Orioles have had 3 Hall of Fame (HOF) players who spent their entire professional careers with the organization:
Brooks Robinson, Jim Palmer, and Cal Ripken, Jr.

They had 1 HOF player, Eddie Murray, who started with the Oriole organization and was traded away, (while still productive) after 12 years with the team.

They have had 1 potential HOF player, Mike Mussina, who started with the Oriole organization and was lost to free agency (while still productive) after 10 years with the team.

The Orioles played all of their pennant winning, playoff and World Series baseball with one or more of these players.

With good drafting, effective player development and judicious acquisitions, they managed to pay for these HOF players and still field winning teams.

I'd like to see them do that again with Machado.

Wouldn't you?

Which of those players was on the 2012, 2014 or 2016 teams?

While I'm not saying it's not possible to keep Manny and have a playoff team, I don't think your analogy works very well.    Frank and Brooks played before free agency existed.    Most of Palmer's prime predated free agency, and even the latter part was before it was routine for players to just go to the highest bidder.    Guys like Reggie Jackson and Bobby Grich did, but Palmer never really tried to eke every last dollar out of the Orioles.    He was a prima donna, but a loyal prima donna.

Mussina was not FA-eligible when he played on the '96-'97 playoff teams.    Murray wasn't FA-eligible when he was on the '79 and '83 teams.  

I think the situation today is just a lot different than on those teams.