Twins Upset with Sisco Bunting

[DrungoHazewood]

22 minutes ago, Bahama O's Fan said:

I don't care if it's a no hitter or no. Shifts are not a traditional part of the game. If you want to defend a hitter with a shift, that's fine, but don't get upset when said batter "hits it where they ain't"

Who cares if it's traditional or not. LOOGYs aren't a traditional part of the game, and nobody cried when LaRussa started bringing in somebody to face one batter.  Innovation happens all the time, and that includes strategies to counter that innovation.  If the Twins don't like thinking a wee bit outside the box then maybe chess or Fun with German Traffic School is more their speed.

[Thats Baseball]

How about the veteran guy of the twins talking to Buxton about stealing second with a 6 run lead.

[Il BuonO]

12 minutes ago, Thats Baseball said:

How about the veteran guy of the twins talking to Buxton about stealing second with a 6 run lead.

What?!?! That’s horrible! I can’t believe a guy would break the unwritten rule of stealing bases when the game is one-sided.

[LocoChris]

Talk about your snowflakes. 

[jamalshw]

I think the Orioles should bunt down the line each and every time the opportunity is available for an 'easy' base hit. If the hit is there, take it. You do that consistently for a few games and the free hit will stop being available. The team will either lessen the shift to cover the hole or pull the third baseman in and over to cover the bunt and allow a hole closer to up-the-middle. At that point, I'll advocate the O's put a focus on hitting the other way in batting practice so they can take advantage of that hole.

The reason the defense shifts is because they believe the batter can't/won't hit the ball there. So, the batter should hit the ball there.

The argument of where it is the game is irrelevant as the idea of bunting in a spot like that is as much about getting on base in the moment as it is about minimizing the shift in the future. If Sisco lays down a few of those bunts the stats will start to show he's willing to do it and the shifts for him will change. To me, doing so in a lopsided game is the best place to start.

[theocean]

1 minute ago, jamalshw said:

I think the Orioles should bunt down the line each and every time the opportunity is available for an 'easy' base hit. If the hit is there, take it. You do that consistently for a few games and the free hit will stop being available. The team will either lessen the shift to cover the hole or pull the third baseman in and over to cover the bunt and allow a hole closer to up-the-middle. At that point, I'll advocate the O's put a focus on hitting the other way in batting practice so they can take advantage of that hole.

The reason the defense shifts is because they believe the batter can't/won't hit the ball there. So, the batter should hit the ball there.

The argument of where it is the game is irrelevant as the idea of bunting in a spot like that is as much about getting on base in the moment as it is about minimizing the shift in the future. If Sisco lays down a few of those bunts the stats will start to show he's willing to do it and the shifts for him will change. To me, doing so in a lopsided game is the best place to start.

It's insane to me that every player doesn't do this. For example, I saw a replay of the Astros four-man outfield the other day: the batter hit right into it! The entire left side of the diamond was open.

The Astros only do that shift when there is no one on the base paths - so whatever batter is up in that situation should be trying to get on base and that's it.

I guess some of these guys just don't know how to bunt?

[Il BuonO]

2 minutes ago, theocean said:

I guess some of these guys just don't know how to bunt?

It’s no longer considered a valuable skill.

[Bonecrusher52]

Please welcome Minnesota The Touchy Twins! 

[O's84]

6 minutes ago, theocean said:

It's insane to me that every player doesn't do this. For example, I saw a replay of the Astros four-man outfield the other day: the batter hit right into it! The entire left side of the diamond was open.

The Astros only do that shift when there is no one on the base paths - so whatever batter is up in that situation should be trying to get on base and that's it.

I guess some of these guys just don't know how to bunt?

I remember at a fanfest (I think 2005) some guy was asking why Palmeiro didn't just bunt against the shift.  He responded with a wry smile.  He never really tried to bunt in the season. 

[DJHJR86]

3 hours ago, Orsulak4Prez said:

If that bunt broke up a no-hitter in the 9th, I could understand, but I really don't get what they have to be upset about.

If it broke up a no-hitter in the 9th, they would have no reason to be upset either.  They shifted on him with a 7 run lead.  I'd bunt every single time.

[DrungoHazewood]

46 minutes ago, Il BuonO said:

It’s no longer considered a valuable skill.

How often did Mantle, or Mays, or Frank Howard or Boog Powell bunt?  I know Ruth bunted some, but he came up in the deadball era, where it would take 40 or 50 sac hits to lead the league.

The large majority of bunts over the last century have been sacrifices.  When people starting doing the math and realizing that position players sacrificing was overwhelmingly counterproductive the main reason to bunt went away.  The deadball era, say 1890-1920, is the only time we've seen good batters regularly bunting.  It's only been six or eight years since the shifts really took hold, and baseball changes glacially.  If it turns out to make sense it'll come back.

[Going Underground]

5 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

How often did Mantle, or Mays, or Frank Howard or Boog Powell bunt?  I know Ruth bunted some, but he came up in the deadball era, where it would take 40 or 50 sac hits to lead the league.

The large majority of bunts over the last century have been sacrifices.  When people starting doing the math and realizing that position players sacrificing was overwhelmingly counterproductive the main reason to bunt went away.  The deadball era, say 1890-1920, is the only time we've seen good batters regularly bunting.  It's only been six or eight years since the shifts really took hold, and baseball changes glacially.  If it turns out to make sense it'll come back.

Eight WS games in which Mickey Mantle attempted to bunt.  No sacrifices.  7 for 8.  .875 batting average bunting in the WS.

 

In his Triple Crown season of 1956, Mickey Mantle beat out over a dozen bunts by the end of July. 

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/729168-new-york-yankees-mickey-mantle-bunted-his-way-to-the-triple-crown

[Going Underground]

5 minutes ago, Going Underground said:

Eight WS games in which Mickey Mantle attempted to bunt.  No sacrifices.  7 for 8.  .875 batting average bunting in the WS.

 

In his Triple Crown season of 1956, Mickey Mantle beat out over a dozen bunts by the end of July. 

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/729168-new-york-yankees-mickey-mantle-bunted-his-way-to-the-triple-crown

And Mantle's bunts were almost exclusively against non-shift defenses.  When he retired after the 1968 season Mickey Mantle was number three in career home runs, behind only Ruth and Willie Mays.  That despite 179 PA, including sacrifices, which ended with bunts.

 

http://radicalbaseball.blogspot.com/2015/04/mickey-mantle-and-others-who-bunted-for.html

[DrungoHazewood]

Ted Williams dealt with the shift more than anyone prior to 2010.  He was one of the greatest hitters of all time, and hated it.  I don't know for sure, but he may have only bunted against it once.  The headline the next day was "Williams Bunts!" and I'm not sure he ever did it again.  And he wasn't successful going the other way.

[Going Underground]

7 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Ted Williams dealt with the shift more than anyone prior to 2010.  He was one of the greatest hitters of all time, and hated it.  I don't know for sure, but he may have only bunted against it once.  The headline the next day was "Williams Bunts!" and I'm not sure he ever did it again.  And he wasn't successful going the other way.

They said Williams had only three infield hits when he hit .406. Probably not bunts. Also sacrifice flies where counted as at bats back then.