MASN dispute update

[Frobby]

9 minutes ago, atomic said:

I am not sure why the National Owners are disputing MASN Holding back dividend payments this year. If their big rights fee payments is the reason for the lack of dividends I am not sure the point. 

I read their court papers on this and think they have a losing argument.    

[tntoriole]

7 hours ago, drjohnnyfeva said:

I don't know the source, as I mentioned, but if you overlay the one I posted with the one Drungo posted, there is no substantial difference in the overall, now disputed, "territory."  The question is, how do they make the split equitable when the DC market for us, was (probably) more profitable than Baltimore itself and much of the rest of our once large territory combined?  DC is a cash cow, that's going to be gone.  What's our compensation?  Does MLB think we even deserve any?  I would argue that it's doubtful that they do given how quickly they have reneged on agreement that was in place.

DC area business certainly helped us and Angelos did not do much to retain those fans after the Nationals came as competition.   As far as DC always being a baseball "cash cow", well I think that is far from a given.  DC has a long history of not supporting baseball over the decades.   It is different for the current generation of Nationals for now, but I think increasingly new revenue sources that are not regionalized and the quaint idea of "regions" and "black out areas" etc.  are going to have to be newly developed by MLB that recognizes its product as all sports media has now moved into a streaming era, and a widely distributable subscription era, more and more.  

[drjohnnyfeva]

7 minutes ago, tntoriole said:

DC area business certainly helped us and Angelos did not do much to retain those fans after the Nationals came as competition.   As far as DC always being a baseball "cash cow", well I think that is far from a given.  DC has a long history of not supporting baseball over the decades.   It is different for the current generation of Nationals for now, but I think increasingly new revenue sources that are not regionalized and the quaint idea of "regions" and "black out areas" etc.  are going to have to be newly developed by MLB that recognizes its product as all sports media has now moved into a streaming era, and a widely distributable subscription era, more and more.  

I agree for the most part, however, it's the advertising as much as anything.  Advertising revenue for DC would be a huge loss.  So the O's losing that "market" is enormous.  In such a large market, the rate to air commercials is far more than Baltimore.  At least, I would imagine so.  It's not just the "area" it's how many people are calculated to see the programming.  If you have a business and you want people to see it, DC already has that advantage.

These blackout lines are BS tho and MLB is making good dough on the sales of their regional and League packages.  My buddy who lives in Glen Rock, PA gets O's, Pirates, and Phillies games  free because he's in the market area.  The Pirates might have been excluded recently, but still.  Same with NBA and NHL.  He's on the Comcast gray area and I'm totally envious.  We're locked out of Phillies and we're probably locked out of DC too once this thing is sorted out.  But DC is a "Cash Cow" if for nothing else but advertising revenue.

[accinfo]

59 minutes ago, tntoriole said:

 As far as DC always being a baseball "cash cow", well I think that is far from a given.  DC has a long history of not supporting baseball over the decades.

I am not going to go out of my way to defend DC but they had bad ownership in Bob Short when they moved out the last time.  Like we in Baltimore did with Irsay. 

[tntoriole]

48 minutes ago, accinfo said:

I am not going to go out of my way to defend DC but they had bad ownership in Bob Short when they moved out the last time.  Like we in Baltimore did with Irsay. 

It was a different time and era, absolutely, but , of course,  the Griffiths moved the original Senators to Minnesota in 1961, then the expansion replacement Senators under Short moved to Texas to become the Rangers in 1971.   And then DC not having a team until the Montreal Expos were basically shafted multiple times both by MLB and various ownership groups including Loria and then ultimately moved to DC in 2004.    Supporting a baseball team historically has always been a challenge for many cities and Baltimore could, I suppose, end up on the short end of the stick at some point in the future.  

 

Here was an interview with Calvin Griffith the owner of the Senators in 1957 where he was talking about the stadium problems of the time and thinking about moving to San Francisco or LA before the Dodgers and Giants did ....

 

“Is it a municipal stadium?” he asks. “It is in name, but consider some of the ramifications. In the first place, the proposed site at the National Guard Armory is not to our liking. The bulk of our attendance is drawn from Bethesda, Chevy Chase, Silver Spring, Arlington, Alexandra, etc., outside of Washington, of course. The Armory site is too far for all these people….

“We have been asked frequently about this new bonanza — the pay-as-you-go television. My research, such as it has been, has disclosed that such a system, which would be handled through the telephone company, would take three to four years to be put into operation.

“At the moment, the visiting clubs are squawking about their receipts from playing at Griffith Stadium — and I can’t blame them. Baltimore got only $9000 last year. The Orioles will do better this season because they got something like $6000 for opening day alone. But Boston, Detroit and several other clubs have lost money coming here. How long can this situation exist?

“Owning our own stadium we have been able to make a living through rentals, etc. You can imagine our reluctance to pay $260,000 a year to use a so-called municipal stadium.

“Frankly, I don’t know what will come of all this. At the moment, I would rule out any possibility of our leaving Washington for another year. But I couldn’t make this a hard and fast statement. Will we stay or will we go? Your guess is as good as mine.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dc-sports-bog/wp/2014/10/21/calvin-griffith-once-considered-moving-the-senators-to-san-francisco/?utm_term=.9095ea895aec

[drjohnnyfeva]

40 minutes ago, tntoriole said:

“Owning our own stadium we have been able to make a living through rentals, etc. You can imagine our reluctance to pay $260,000 a year to use a so-called municipal stadium.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dc-sports-bog/wp/2014/10/21/calvin-griffith-once-considered-moving-the-senators-to-san-francisco/?utm_term=.9095ea895aec

How many owners nowadays would embark on a plan to own their own stadium/park?  How times have changed.  Virtually all owners since Irsay - the d-bag - have leveraged fan devotion against the commitment of public money.  And the guys making money the most continue to win.

There will be no different outcome here.  The TV and the advertising derived from the exposure is the key.  And whichever lawyer group is willing to expend the most capital to get what they want will win.  Whoever blinks first loses. 

[tntoriole]

1 minute ago, drjohnnyfeva said:

How many owners nowadays would embark on a plan to own their own stadium/park?  How times have changed.  Virtually all owners since Irsay - the d-bag - have leveraged fan devotion against the commitment of public money.  And the guys making money the most continue to win.

There will be no different outcome here.  The TV and the advertising derived from the exposure is the key.  And whichever lawyer group is willing to expend the most capital to get what they want will win.  Whoever blinks first loses. 

Yes, I agree.  One thing about it is for sure.  The old man was a bulldog lawyer and he would likely have continued to just be like that proverbial dog with a bone until MLB finally likely have brokered a settlement to his advantage just to get him to back off.  The young heirs?  Not so much. 

[drjohnnyfeva]

8 minutes ago, tntoriole said:

Yes, I agree.  One thing about it is for sure.  The old man was a bulldog lawyer and he would likely have continued to just be like that proverbial dog with a bone until MLB finally likely have brokered a settlement to his advantage just to get him to back off.  The young heirs?  Not so much. 

Well, they are lawyers and their time, to them and their interests, is free; so let's not be too hasty. 

But I think that we disagree about the importance of the lines given how MLB will offer an end around with programming packages to be purchased now and in the future.  The "spoils" coming from where ever the lines might be is the issue.  That's why I posted the original pic that I did.  We are the orange and the tiny slice of "rust belt" thru the Eastern Shore and into near Gettysburg, while DC and the Nats inherit the bulk of our "old territory."  ...all of VA and WVa and northern NC, even Frederick, perhaps, and Hagerstown are a gray area. Ours is a sliver and if that's the Nat's ownership goal, then I say fight it until THEY blink.  The Angelosii have nothing to lose on that.

The only other issue is the death of Peter.  His wife or the kids will inherit.  MLB will not take the team.  But the value of their inheritance can't be valued until the dispute is settled, so the Nats' ownership has us by the proverbial balls, imo.

[Satyr3206]

The deal that should be brokered now is simple. Settle the MASN lawsuit in exchange for Ownership transfer. The details would be a nightmare to negotiate but that looks like the simplest way to solve everything.

[tntoriole]

4 minutes ago, drjohnnyfeva said:

Well, they are lawyers and their time, to them and their interests, is free; so let's not be too hasty. 

But I think that we disagree about the importance of the lines given how MLB will offer an end around with programming packages to be purchased now and in the future.  The "spoils" coming from where ever the lines might be is the issue.  That's why I posted the original pic that I did.  We are the orange and the tiny slice of "rust belt" thru the Eastern Shore and into near Gettysburg, while DC and the Nats inherit the bulk of our "old territory."  ...all of VA and WVa and northern NC, even Frederick, perhaps, and Hagerstown are a gray area. Ours is a sliver and if that's the Nat's ownership goal, then I say fight it until THEY blink.  The Angelosii have nothing to lose on that.

The only other issue is the death of Peter.  His wife or the kids will inherit.  MLB will not take the team.  But the value of their inheritance can't be valued until the dispute is settled, so the Nats' ownership has us by the proverbial balls, imo.

A lot of Virginia. particularly near the Western MD border and all the way down the Shenandoah and sw Virginia are many more Oriole fans...not Nationals.  And Norfolk area with AAA Orioles have more Oriole fans...If Charlotte ever gets an expansion, Nats will get whacked. 

[oriolesfan97]

As an longtime orioles fan who was born and raised in Montgomery County MD, and currently living in Northern VA, I don't like Peter Angelos at all, but the Orioles franchise is not simply viable in this market without a solid TV deal. If MLB wants to put a team in DC, then the Orioles should have the right to recoup the all financial losses that result. I don't blame Angelos alienating the other MLB owners and DC fan base that everyone is willing to fight him tooth and nail to extract every last penny from the MASN deal. Also, it's pretty clear that the RSDC committee is corrupt and biased, and this deal should only require an independent arbitrator moving forward. Any decision that goes to the RSDC will favor the Nats, despite MLB giving them a $25 million loan back in 2013.  I just hope the result doesn't lead to the Orioles leaving Baltimore and possibly relocating to Las Vegas, Nashville, or Portland. It will be a major black eye on MLB. The Orioles are already in a tough spot by being in the same division with the Red Sox and Yankees.

Edited May 7, 2019 by oriolesfan97

[drjohnnyfeva]

6 minutes ago, tntoriole said:

A lot of Virginia. particularly near the Western MD border and all the way down the Shenandoah and sw Virginia are many more Oriole fans...not Nationals.  And Norfolk area with AAA Orioles have more Oriole fans...If Charlotte ever gets an expansion, Nats will get whacked. 

Well, I get it.  That's why the lines are important.  I don't agree with the pic I posted, but if it's a model that the Nats see as their area, we're in trouble and we're in store for a long a$$ court battle.

[atomic]

https://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/orioles/bs-sp-orioles-masn-courts-20190508-story.html

Orioles to appeal the decision based on MLB lending money  to the Nationals.

[Redskins Rick]

On 5/6/2019 at 5:40 PM, accinfo said:

I am not going to go out of my way to defend DC but they had bad ownership in Bob Short when they moved out the last time.  Like we in Baltimore did with Irsay. 

I suspect Short is probably going down in the record book as the worse owner in MLB history.  he was as bad and as stupid as they come.

Which is how they ended up in Texas.

When Griffith being the racist he was, inherited the team and then worked on getting it moved to Minnesota.

 

 

[Tony-OH]

On 5/6/2019 at 7:55 AM, DrungoHazewood said:

I don't think so.  Not unless it has pretty radically changed in the past four years.

That seems pretty accurate! I'd like to see around Sarasota though to see if the Orioles spring training there has put them on the map in that county.