Control and Command -- K/BB Ratio

[AZRon]

https://medium.com/@jeremylehrman/whos-in-command-here-8ed547d9dc7f

I found this interesting.

Given the current MLB environment for pitchers, how would you rate the importance of the following pitching characteristics?:
(Does the relative importance differ for starters versus relievers?)
Velocity
Pitch movement
Spin rate
Control
Command

 

[Hallas]

What's the difference between control and command?

Pitch movement and spin rate are almost the same thing.

There are also a lot of difficult-to-quantify things here.  Such as ability to sell a changeup.  But I would probably go with velo followed by control/command (they sort of seem like the same thing.)

[AZRon]

8 minutes ago, Hallas said:

What's the difference between control and command?.....

Control is the ability to throw strikes.

Command is the ability to throw to specific spots into or out of the strike zone.

One could argue that a pitcher could demonstrate control without command
but,
it's difficult to comprehend a case of pitcher with command but lacking control.

[Moose Milligan]

Command

Movement

Velocity

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Moose Milligan said:

Command

Movement

Velocity

You went from least to most right?

[Moose Milligan]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

You went from least to most right?

Nope.  

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Moose Milligan said:

Nope.  

Oh.

[Moose Milligan]

2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Oh.

Here's an accurate portrayal of your thoughts on my rankings:

[Can_of_corn]

We still never talk sometimes.

[AZRon]

50 minutes ago, Hallas said:

"....Pitch movement and spin rate are almost the same thing....."

Not quite.
Here's a useful article:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/baseballs-top-staffs-have-come-around-on-the-high-spin-fastball/

While the rate of spin may affect movement, the direction and amount of movement are affected by release point, finger placement on the ball, finger pressure, and force of the throw.

[AZRon]

1 hour ago, Hallas said:

"....There are also a lot of difficult-to-quantify things here.  Such as ability to sell a changeup....."

Good point, you could add "consistency of arm speed" on different pitch types as a ranking characteristic. However, I think (even at the MLB level) arm speed differential has to be sizable to be detected by the hitter.

[AZRon]

1 hour ago, Hallas said:

"....But I would probably go with velo followed by control/command (they sort of seem like the same thing.)

 

56 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Command

Movement

Velocity

Here's how I would rank the pitching characteristics in importance:
1. Command
2. Pitch movement
3. Control
4. Spin rate
5. Velocity

My opinion is based both on personal amateur experience and watching the professional game over many years.

I've paid special attention:
to the success of effective MLB knuckle-ball pitchers and effective MLB pitchers with less than average fastball velocity;
and
to the failure of pitchers at the MLB level with average to better to best fastball velocity but lacking command

 

[linedrive]

Based on how they're defined, I agree with Moose:

Command

Movement

Velocity

Then Spin rate and Control.

Without command, you're not going to have much success in the Majors, and we can see that with our guys who throw 97-98 MPH and have trouble getting outs. But with command, an average fastball can be very effective, especially with movement. 

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, linedrive said:

Based on how they're defined, I agree with Moose:

Command

Movement

Velocity

Then Spin rate and Control.

Without command, you're not going to have much success in the Majors, and we can see that with our guys who throw 97-98 MPH and have trouble getting outs. But with command, an average fastball can be very effective, especially with movement. 

And how much harder is the "average fastball" today over say 30 years ago?

[waroriole]

I don’t know enough about spin rate to have a great answer here. I’m kinda considering it similar to movement. But here goes:

Command

Movement

Spin

Control

Velocity