Control and Command -- K/BB Ratio

[Chavez Ravine]

1 hour ago, Hallas said:

What's the difference between control and command?

Pitch movement and spin rate are almost the same thing.

There are also a lot of difficult-to-quantify things here.  Such as ability to sell a changeup.  But I would probably go with velo followed by control/command (they sort of seem like the same thing.)

I too am a bit dubious that the distinction between control and command is a quantifiable thing you can use to differentiate pitchers...even to separate the immortal from the elite. A test would be to see if pitchers in a non game situation , but going all out as if it was, can consistently throw their best stuff to a specific tiny spot. But we don't have the luxury of an experiment, just lots of complex in game situations.  I am dubious that even Schilling in his prime could hit a spot on command with his best "stuff" and do that over 7 innings, let alone a whole season.  It seems more likely to me that if you ask prime Schilling to throw a low and away fastball he did it more or less (most innings on most starts for a stretch of years)...unlike lots and lots of other pitchers. On the other side, are there really pitchers that can't consistently hit a spot but can throw strikes? As the article seems to point out the K/BB ratio seems to measure a whole bunch of unrelated things....like how many balls Maddox got the umpire to call strikes for him.

[linedrive]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

And how much harder is the "average fastball" today over say 30 years ago?

I don't think it matters much, although it has increased. Velocity is nice, but if it's straight, or poorly located... wham! it's outta here... unless it's outside of course, and then it's a walk.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, linedrive said:

I don't think it matters much, although it has increased. Velocity is nice, but if it's straight, or poorly located... wham! it's outta here... unless it's outside of course, and then it's a walk.

I'm guessing about four mph because it matter a huge amount.

[Hallas]

26 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I'm guessing about four mph because it matter a huge amount.

From 2007 to now it's up 2.1 mph, from 91.1 to 93.2.  Not really sure about 4 mph but I would venture to guess at least that much, and possibly another 1 mph.

IIRC 88-89 was considered slow in 1989.

[Moose Milligan]

It's cool, guys.  CoC was a big Brad Pennington fan.

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, Moose Milligan said:

It's cool, guys.  CoC was a big Brad Pennington fan.

I'm fine with the most of the rest of you disagreeing with me.

Just got some relaxing Deathcore playing and having a good time.

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I'm fine with the most of the rest of you disagreeing with me.

Just got some relaxing Deathcore playing and having a good time.

Totes not kidding about the Deathcore btw.

[Moose Milligan]

6 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Totes not kidding about the Deathcore btw.

That's the only sentence you'll ever read with "totes" and "deathcore". 

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Moose Milligan said:

That's the only sentence you'll ever read with "totes" and "deathcore". 

I'm trying to appeal more to millennials to get that third bird. 

[ArtVanDelay]

Velocity

Spin rate/movement

Command

Control

[Camden_yardbird]

It's a trick question.  No single category is paramount.  A player can succeed excelling at differing levels of each skill and we have exemplars of each.

 

 

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, Chavez Ravine said:

I too am a bit dubious that the distinction between control and command is a quantifiable thing you can use to differentiate pitchers.

Are you saying the distinction doesn’t exist, or you can’t measure it?   I think you could argue that there is a spectrum between being wild, having control and having command.   In that sense, command and control are not really distinct qualities, one is just a stronger form of the other.    

[Enjoy Terror]

59 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Totes not kidding about the Deathcore btw.

New Full of Hell record?

[Chavez Ravine]

30 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Are you saying the distinction doesn’t exist, or you can’t measure it?   I think you could argue that there is a spectrum between being wild, having control and having command.   In that sense, command and control are not really distinct qualities, one is just a stronger form of the other.    

Sort of both. I agree that there is a spectrum. At the MLB level (plus down a level or two) it seems like everyone is trying to throw to a particular spot. Among that pool, the distinction between throwing your 97 MPH fastball down the pipe vs. spotting it on the corner (or floating a lackadaisical slider through the meat of the zone vs. catching the bottom of the zone as it dives to the dirt) is a fine one. It is fine partly because the ability to spot elite stuff is so ephemeral....from year to year, game to game, and even from inning to inning. When all you have to work with is long-term observational data it gets very difficult to distinguish fine shades of meaning. Meaning such as the pitcher meant to spot that slider so it just caught the lower left corner as opposed to they where just hoping to throw the slider for a strike, but hopefully not a really good one. Plus on top of everything is all the other stuff. Like whatever stuff makes Chris Davis stare at a 93 MPH fastball that floats through the meat of the plate.

 

[tntoriole]

Funny how they still make  a pretense of reviewing MFY plays.