Norfolk catchers find something they like in the water

[wildcard]

26 minutes ago, SteveA said:

It's the battle of hearts vs minds.   A lot of people went into the season saying the team would likely be bad, maybe even lose 100+ games or more.   And that they wanted to see prospects.

But losing isn't fun.   In February you could sit in your heated living room watching snow flurries outside and say this team will probably lose 100+ and they are OK with that as long as prospects move along.   But now, we are actually playing the games and suffering the losses, and even though we are on a pac to go 64-98 which is actually better than some people predicted -- it isn't fun to lose.   And people are getting reactive and anyone who isn't performing well 43 games into the season, they want to get rid of.   It's emotional, reactive, and not logical.   But people aren't always logical.

I still don't think there are too many people like you describe.   I think there are some people who are reacting to losing and wanting to make moves for the sake of making moves, out of frustration.   But for the most part, I don't think they are the people who said we don't need to worry about team record.   I think there are two different sets of people.

Since Camden_yardbird is posting in the catcher thread and he is talking about former top 10 prospects I take it he is talking about Sisco.   Sisco was a #2 prospect pre 2018.   I don't think the talk about him is because losing.  Its about non performance IMO.    No one is talking about sending down Hays who has been a top 10 prospect.  The reason for that is that he is performing.

Top 10 status does not last forever especially when there is non performance. Sisco has had time in the majors for over  3+  seasons.

The argument that its too soon in the season to send him down is a fair one.   But it appears that Hyde/Elias have decided to give  Severino playing time over Sisco.  I don't know how Sisco changes that with a .180 batting average.  His leverage to get more playing time is weak at this point because of management's preferences.  

I am not for getting rid for Sisco.  But he does have an option and that may be a way to get his bat started.  And if he hits at AAA and comes back up he may get more playing time.   Wilkerson started out not making the team out of ST.  He hit at AAA and now Hyde says he wants a long look at him at 2B.  The same could happen to Sisco at catcher if he hits at AAA.

[Camden_yardbird]

1 hour ago, SteveA said:

Mountcastle has picked it up lately.   Mullins and Mancini having good years.   Tyler Wells looks like a Rule 5 keeper.   Obviously Means.   Galvis is doing what we paid him to do.

The biggest disappointment is the combined performance so far of Kremer/Akin/Lowther/Zimmerman.   But the four of them have 80 innings total, that's really not a lot.   We need to pitch them, whether it's here or in Norfolk, a lot ore and see how things play out.   We supposedly have processes in place where pitchers can analyze what they are doing wrong and improve, now we have to give them a chance to do that.

Anyone who isn't encouraged by what they are seeing almost across the board at the AA, A, and low-A level simply isn't paying attention.

My concern with Elias is not his ability to develop prospects, he proved he could do that in Houston.  What we are seeing in the Minors is impressive (12-0 last week in AA and A).  My concern is he can't craft a competitive major league team.  Has he tried yet? No, and that should be concerning too. The Orioles with their current ownership are going to have to operate so close to perfect to compete, churn through players to find what works, identify useful fringe talent, make meaningful trades that bring back at or near ready talent (all things Tampa does) and he just makes too many personal evaluation errors, has not shown an ability to prepare minor leaguers to succeed at the major league level, is relatively poor at identifying meaningful role players or fringe talents that can contribute.  He has made some trades for bulk single A players that look like they might bare some fruit. There are a lot of holes in his management, skills he needs that he has just not shown and the Orioles can't afford to patch them the way "his" (Lunhows) competitive Astros teams did.

[OriolesMagic83]

Can someone put the speed gun on their throws to 2nd.  Do anyone them have movement on their throws?  Any chance they can be stretched out as starters?

[HowAboutThat]

5 hours ago, SteveA said:

Who is a better warm body in the minors, besides the obvious Rutschman who is not up yet either for developmental or service time reasons or some combination of the two?

I'm certainly willing to give Cumberland a chance, if he keeps up doing what he's doing for a reasonable sample size of at bats .. we are still less than 3 weeks into the minor league season.   But I'm not willing to declare him as flat out better.

EDIT:  Was reading the thread in order, now I see that @DrungoHazewood has made basically the same response.   Guess I should have read to the end before responding.

You didn’t read my reply to Drungo either.

[HowAboutThat]

6 hours ago, wildcard said:

There is always the possibility that optioning Sisco gets him more at bats and gets him hitting better so he can come back up and continue playing better in the majors.

Yes. 
 

 

4 hours ago, Camden_yardbird said:

The proposition of many in this thread:

"We are rebuilding we don't need to worry about team record, but we should definitely replace former organizational top 10 prospects with triple A non-prospects who have hit well in less than 40 at bats."

Nothing about that makes sense.

 

I’m sure that wasn’t to me, because that’s not what I’m suggesting. I’m suggesting that we should bring them up because the guys we have are terrible. I do not give a peculiar damn about how the potential replacements are performing in the minors, as I said, even if it’s a lateral change(and lateral means side to side, that is, different, but not necessarily better, it’s a good word) there’s no reason not to make it because the guys we have are so bad. Isn’t it increasingly obvious the guys we have are themselves non-prospects?

It therefore follows that giving another non-prospect a chance is not going to hurt the team and MAY reveal a pleasant surprise, especially on defense.

[HowAboutThat]

3 hours ago, SteveA said:

It's the battle of hearts vs minds.   A lot of people went into the season saying the team would likely be bad, maybe even lose 100+ games or more.   And that they wanted to see prospects.

But losing isn't fun.   In February you could sit in your heated living room watching snow flurries outside and say this team will probably lose 100+ and they are OK with that as long as prospects move along.   But now, we are actually playing the games and suffering the losses, and even though we are on a pac to go 64-98 which is actually better than some people predicted -- it isn't fun to lose.   And people are getting reactive and anyone who isn't performing well 43 games into the season, they want to get rid of.   It's emotional, reactive, and not logical.   But people aren't always logical.

I still don't think there are too many people like you describe.   I think there are some people who are reacting to losing and wanting to make moves for the sake of making moves, out of frustration.   But for the most part, I don't think they are the people who said we don't need to worry about team record.   I think there are two different sets of people.

I actually cannot think of anybody who really publicly said, “I don’t care about winning, “and meant it.

I would rather win 65 than 60 I’d rather win 75 than 70.

And I think some minor and free changes to the roster would make that more likely. Starting with catcher. Actually, by now it might be more important to start with starting pitching, but I digress.

[SteveA]

27 minutes ago, Philip said:

I actually cannot think of anybody who really publicly said, “I don’t care about winning, “and meant it.

I would rather win 65 than 60 I’d rather win 75 than 70.

And I think some minor and free changes to the roster would make that more likely. Starting with catcher. Actually, by now it might be more important to start with starting pitching, but I digress.

Sure, but player development and the future is paramount right now.   I don't believe in change for the sake of change.   I wouldn't send down Kremer.   I would wait a while longer before giving up on Sisco for Cumberland.   Now if it was Adley time, I'd drive Chance to the airport.   You want to jerk people up and down whenever they aren't performing, or you make judgements based on 100 at bats that someone is useless and all you care about is getting them gone.   That's no way to build a team.  Have a plan, put people in position to succeed, try to help them succeed, and don't make a 180 degree turn in mid May unless there is a legitimate reason to do so.   Chance Sisco has better minor leage numbers than Cumberland and Cumberland had never played at AAA before this year.   He's had a good 2 and a half weeks down there.  Let's see him do that for two months.   You are way too impatient, you want to warm up guys in the bullpen an inning or two before Hyde in case they are needed, you want to make even more pitching changes than we already do even though the number of pitchers used per game is already at an all time high, you complain when we bring in a "bad" reliever when we are down 5-1 because it means we are "giving up", you want to get rid of guys who have a bad month.   Baseball is a marathon.   We simply aren't going to agree on how a team should be built or managed.

[HowAboutThat]

4 minutes ago, SteveA said:

Sure, but player development and the future is paramount right now.   I don't believe in change for the sake of change.   I wouldn't send down Kremer.   I would wait a while longer before giving up on Sisco for Cumberland.   Now if it was Adley time, I'd drive Chance to the airport.   You want to jerk people up and down whenever they aren't performing, or you make judgements based on 100 at bats that someone is useless and all you care about is getting them gone.   That's no way to build a team.  Have a plan, put people in position to succeed, try to help them succeed, and don't make a 180 degree turn in mid May unless there is a legitimate reason to do so.   Chance Sisco has better minor leage numbers than Cumberland and Cumberland had never played at AAA before this year.   He's had a good 2 and a half weeks down there.  Let's see him do that for two months.   You are way too impatient, you want to warm up guys in the bullpen an inning or two before Hyde in case they are needed, you want to make even more pitching changes than we already do even though the number of pitchers used per game is already at an all time high, you complain when we bring in a "bad" reliever when we are down 5-1 because it means we are "giving up", you want to get rid of guys who have a bad month.   Baseball is a marathon.   We simply aren't going to agree on how a team should be built or managed.

I just deleted a snarky, but entirely warranted, comment. No point to it.

 I’ve made my point clear many times. I’m not “yanking guys back-and-forth.” I’m not “wanting to get rid of guys who have a bad month”

I’ve justified what I said more than once and if you want to continue to misinterpret it you go right ahead.

[SteveA]

5 minutes ago, Philip said:

I just deleted a snarky, but entirely warranted, comment. No point to it.

 I’ve made my point clear many times. I’m not “yanking guys back-and-forth.” I’m not “wanting to get rid of guys who have a bad month”

I’ve justified what I said more than once and if you want to continue to misinterpret it you go right ahead.

Like when you said a couple weeks ago we should "replace the entire infield"?

[Frobby]

I do think that if the catching situation stays the same for another two weeks we may see changes.   

[HowAboutThat]

3 hours ago, SteveA said:

Like when you said a couple weeks ago we should "replace the entire infield"?

Go look up the word “hyperbole.“ However, I do not think it is necessarily a bad idea. But yes if you care to you can go back and read my past comments and see that I’m being very consistent. But this thread is about catching and I want to replace both catchers and I have for quite some time, and they have never given me a reason to doubt my desire.If you are happy with the catching, that is of course you’re right and your freedom and your choice.

i am not.

[Legend_Of_Joey]

Question...How long do you give someone to “turn it around?” Do stats to end a previous season count? Spring Training, when the same issues carried over? Or does the line keep moving further away as long as it is convenient?

For the record, Ramon Urias has 78 career MLB at bats and is a .269 hitter with a .735 OPS. Yet a lot of people couldn’t get rid of him quick enough. 

[sportsfan8703]

Can Cumberland even hold up playing/catching 81 games a season?  It doesn’t seem that way. 

[Frobby]

6 hours ago, Legend_Of_Joey said:

Question...How long do you give someone to “turn it around?” Do stats to end a previous season count? Spring Training, when the same issues carried over? Or does the line keep moving further away as long as it is convenient?

For the record, Ramon Urias has 78 career MLB at bats and is a .269 hitter with a .735 OPS. Yet a lot of people couldn’t get rid of him quick enough. 

My issue with Urias is that he had poor instincts in the field.    Twice he made errors on throws to home plate where he never should have thrown the ball in the first place.   It’s one thing to do that if you are 20 years old at Delmarva, but not when you’re almost 27 and have almost 1000 professional games under your belt.   He made 5 errors in the equivalent of 16-17 full games.   Not acceptable.    And from my observation, not likely to improve to an acceptable level.   So, his poor hitting in 59 PA was not the main reason he was shipped out IMO.  

I think for players with a couple of years worth of major league track record, you generally give them a couple of months before considering moves.   But we are approaching that time, especially considering that our AAA catchers are hitting well.   
 

[wildcard]

54 minutes ago, Frobby said:

My issue with Urias is that he had poor instincts in the field.    Twice he made errors on throws to home plate where he never should have thrown the ball in the first place.   It’s one thing to do that if you are 20 years old at Delmarva, but not when you’re almost 27 and have almost 1000 professional games under your belt.   He made 5 errors in the equivalent of 16-17 full games.   Not acceptable.    And from my observation, not likely to improve to an acceptable level.   So, his poor hitting in 59 PA was not the main reason he was shipped out IMO.  

I think for players with a couple of years worth of major league track record, you generally give them a couple of months before considering moves.   But we are approaching that time, especially considering that our AAA catchers are hitting well.   
 

I always thought that Sisco had a weak arm.   But he has done well throwing out runners this year.   So there is some improvement there.   He also seems to be blocking balls in the dirt better then I remember.  In the past he has had times when he had a good OBP.    I just want to see him start hitting better.   If some time in the minors achieves that I am all for it.  He has an option.  And he is only 26 with 2 plus years of major league experience under his belt.