I'm already over this offseason.

[emmett16]

2 minutes ago, waroriole said:

The 2020 season is clearly an outlier, and the smallest sample size. He was good in 2018, 2019, and 2021. 

Matz had a 4.72 ERA on 7/15 of 2021 then proceeded to pitch:

4 games vs. BAL

2 games vs. MIN

2 games vs. DET

1 game vs. TEX

1 game vs. NYM

1 game vs. SEA

1 game vs. CLE

1 game vs. NYY

1 game vs. BOS

 

He pitched against the Yankees 2 times last year, Boston 3 times, and Tampa Once.  He was hidden against strong RH lineups and the better teams in general.  Not a guy I would target to pitch in the AL East against the better competition.  

[owknows]

9 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

You are completely misrepresenting my position on what I want done..by a wide margin.  
 

 

owknows mumbles something about pots and kettles

[LookinUp]

17 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Yea, you are right.  We should just discuss how great things are and how super exciting it is to have the top ranked farm system.  The amount of wins that stuff is adding is great!!

By all means, continue. I get that you know baseball. But in all honesty, I think you're being obtuse here.

How is what you're advocating any different than coming on here and demanding a $220 million payroll like the Yankees? It's the same argument. We need a new owner. Just in one scenario you need someone like Jeff Bezos. Either way, it's not the plan and that's been stated numerous times.

You're arguing for middling upgrades to a terrible team so fans can be excited. They're planning to spend on a playoff run. They think the two options are mutually exclusive. No matter how much you disagree, your wish will not come true. 

[Sports Guy]

You guys are taking the idea of Steven Matz way to literally.  Moose isn’t necessarily saying we should have signed him persay.  He is saying that these are the types of contracts we should easily be able to pay for and the Orioles aren’t even considering them.

In some cases, I think that’s a good thing but this team needs actual ML starting pitching.  They need guys where the game isn’t over by the 3rd inning.  

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, LookinUp said:

By all means, continue. I get that you know baseball. But in all honesty, I think you're being obtuse here.

How is what you're advocating any different than coming on here and demanding a $220 million payroll like the Yankees? It's the same argument. We need a new owner. Just in one scenario you need someone like Jeff Bezos. Either way, it's not the plan and that's been stated numerous times.

You're arguing for middling upgrades to a terrible team so fans can be excited. They're planning to spend on a playoff run. They think the two options are mutually exclusive. No matter how much you disagree, your wish will not come true. 

I’m not doing this at all but carry on anyway.

I think it’s funny that people actually trust this ownership group to do what they are saying they will do.  Do you all trust politicians too?

[LookinUp]

2 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I’m not doing this at all but carry on anyway.

I think it’s funny that people actually trust this ownership group to do what they are saying they will do.  Do you all trust politicians too?

I don't trust any of them. The only way I trust that the Orioles can win with this ownership, over time, is to see through a full scale rebuild that focuses 100% on young young young and cheap talent. I think any divergence from that plan inhibits our ability, under this ownership, to compete in the future.

So basically I'm saying that I think signing guys like Matz isn't just a wasteful use of resources now, but if anything hurts us in the future with this ownership group.

See, I've accepted they suck and am trying to see the path through their suckiness. Seems to me that Elias is doing the same thing.

[owknows]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

You guys are taking the idea of Steven Matz way to literally.  Moose isn’t necessarily saying we should have signed him persay.  He is saying that these are the types of contracts we should easily be able to pay for and the Orioles aren’t even considering them.

 

There are several arguments at play here.

1) Is "because they can afford to" sufficient reason for the Orioles to add another Ubaldo Jimenez level contract?

2) Is Matz (the player whose signing caused OP's frustration) an appropriate target if we were looking to add an innings eater?

3) Should we even be considering adding ML Vet players of note until they have a chance to impact our chances of post season play?

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, owknows said:

There are several arguments at play here.

1) Is "because they can afford to" sufficient reason for the Orioles to add another Ubaldo Jimenez level contract?

2) Is Matz (the player whose signing caused OP's frustration) an appropriate target if we were looking to add an innings eater?

3) Should we even be considering adding ML Vet players of note until they have a chance to impact our chances of post season play?

#3 is the only discussion that matters. Again, you guys are too hung on Matz and not the overall point.

I think most of you are fooling yourselves if you don’t think there is value to putting a product on the field that is more watchable, especially considering how bad this team has been for the better part of the last 25 years.

There is also nothing wrong with signing a guy a year early.  People are saying we must have a vet catcher for Adley.  Why?  To teach him right?  For someone to learn from, correct?

Why can’t we do that with a vet starter?  Grayson will be here.  Other young pitchers will be here.  Why can’t they also benefit from that?

You keep talking about how the Os farm system is so good and they can have all this young talent up here.  Ok great..what is an additional perk to that?  It gives you the ability to spend money.

I have said it a million times..for the most part, I hate the free agency market but that doesn’t mean you don’t do it and right now, when you are about to have a team full of guys making no money, is a great time to do it.  
 

The payroll for this team, based off of what we have now (and the first pick coming up) will be incredibly low for the next 4-6 years without FA additions.  Even arb raises won’t be that much until you get to the final year or 2 (although we do need to see what the system changes to).

Some of you have this notion that spending money now means we will be back to the 2000s.  How does that even make sense?  The 2000s sucked because the team ignored the minor leagues, drafted and developed poorly, didn’t trade guys when they should have and just made a serious of comically stupid moves.

Well, if I’m reading this board correctly, people love Elias, think the farm system is great and that the future is bright.  If you actually believe those things, how can you actually believe that spending money is going to kill all the momentum?  
 

The Os could hav signed Matz to a 5/60 deal and he gets hit by a bus tomorrow and never pitches again And it wouldn’t effect anything at all.  It just adds 13M to a payroll that is going to be 1/3 of what they are able to spend.  It’s a drop in the bucket in the scheme of things, yet some of you are acting like spending money spells impending doom for the franchise.

You either believe in what the Os are doing or you don’t.  If you do, spending money on players we need isn’t going to hurt anything.  

[interloper]

I can only shrug at these kinds of threads. 

"Please someone fix this organization once and for all!!"

/organization undergoes significant reorganization/modernization/repairs/future-proofing in only 3 years, one of which was completely lost to COVID. 

"I'm bored and I hate this!"

[Sports Guy]

3 minutes ago, interloper said:

I can only shrug at these kinds of threads. 

"Please someone fix this organization once and for all!!"

/organization undergoes significant reorganization/modernization/repairs/future-proofing in only 3 years, one of which was completely lost to COVID. 

"I'm bored and I hate this!"

Not one thing you just named there has to be done at the expense of winning and fielding a good team.

[ChosenOne21]

Remember when we signed Ubaldo to 4/50 because of one good half season? That's what Metz feels like to me.

That said, the O's should really be looking to land a mid-rotation arm and one of the eight or so amazing infielders this offseason.

Personally I think this was the offseason to start spending, but I don't know 1% as much as Elias about the state of the franchise. If we don't spend next offseason, then something has to have gone horribly wrong

[luismatos4prez]

I totally agree with the sentiment of this post.

But I'm naively hoping they'll extend Trey, not trade Means, sign a ML SS, and 2 ML SPs. I'm ready to be disappointed.

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, ChosenOne21 said:

Remember when we signed Ubaldo to 4/50 because of one good half season? That's what Metz feels like to me.

That said, the O's should really be looking to land a mid-rotation arm and one of the eight or so amazing infielders this offseason.

Personally I think this was the offseason to start spending, but I don't know 1% as much as Elias about the state of the franchise. If we don't spend next offseason, then something has to have gone horribly wrong

And that’s the problem.  They just want to sit on their hands and wait.  Let’s see what happens this year and then we will spend!  Well what happens if things don’t pan out for the 2022 season?  What if Adley and Grayson are what we expect but Stowers shows he can’t hand upper level pitching, Hall is hurt or showing he is a reliever, Westburg stalls, etc…you can’t just sit back and assume everything is going to work out.  You have to go after things.

[interloper]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

Not one thing you just named there has to be done at the expense of winning and fielding a good team.

Good luck getting all those top picks otherwise. You have to tank if you're a smaller market team. You just do. I don't care if people don't like it, or it's bad for the game - I agree with all that. But you have to do it. Especially if the organization was in the dire state that Elias found it. 

The Rays did the same exact thing years ago. And now they don't have to because they did the work up front and created a pipeline. Just like the Astros did. It works and it was always part of Elias' plan. 

People are getting their ire up approx. 1 year too early, IMO. These gripes make a lot more sense in the off-season of 2022. Essentially you are complaining about 2 losing years under Elias. Because let's face it, 2020 basically didn't exist. 60 games is nothing, none of the prospects played, just write it off. 

So we're whining about losing in 2019 and 2021? That's all the rebuild people can stomach? Cry me a river man. 

[ChosenOne21]

Just now, Sports Guy said:

And that’s the problem.  They just want to sit on their hands and wait.  Let’s see what happens this year and then we will spend!  Well what happens if things don’t pan out for the 2022 season?  What if Adley and Grayson are what we expect but Stowers shows he can’t hand upper level pitching, Hall is hurt or showing he is a reliever, Westburg stalls, etc…you can’t just sit back and assume everything is going to work out.  You have to go after things.

That's an awful lot of "What if Elias reacts this way" for my tastes. I'm disappointed they don't seem to be spending this offseason. If they don't do it next offseason, I will be extremely unhappy with the direction of the franchise.

Unless a miracle like 2012 happens and like everyone they have in the wings/pick up on waivers ends up being really great. But I'm not counting on that