Maybe Frazier can play

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, Frobby said:

Who are y’all?   I don’t think everyone has the same opinion of each of these transactions.  

Did anyone have a problem with the Irvin trade?

Did anyone have an issue with the Gibson deal in a vacuum?

I don't think anyone has much of an issue with McCann as a backup catcher, just some of us don't want him getting at bats at other positions.

[emmett16]

2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

How does that work?

How is Frazier a hurdle for Westburg?

Does he have to defeat him in a kumite?

 

Have we heard anything about either Westburg or Ortiz needed something to motivate them?  Have they been reported to not be hard workers and I missed it?

"Jordan, you had a fantastic 2022.  Your competition for playing time in MLB is X.  Here is what we believe you need to do to have success." For example.

Frazier has the job Westburg wants.

Thats the second vocabulary word I've learned today.

Quite the opposite, they are both reported to be extremely hard workers.  Iron sharpens Iron.  

 

[emmett16]

3 minutes ago, turtlebowl said:

If you are on the cusp of making it to the show and you need extra motivation to make you work hard then that is a player I wouldn't have a lot of faith in.  

Maybe Elias didn't want to hand Westburg the job but if competition was truly his motive then why spend 8 million when you could of found another body for cheaper to challenge Westburg.

I actually think Elias signed him as a what if, meaning if a trade option became available he would be able to trade Westburg knowing that he had Frazier there to hold the fort down until the other MI prospects showed they were ready.  We know Elias isn't going to rush a prospect so this signing protected that from happening.   

It's a development strategy and tactic.  Nothing to do with his mental make-up which is by all accounts off the charts.

How do we know who they spoke with, offered jobs, and were denied?

Sure.  Creating inventory and redundancies are critical to all high functioning organizations.

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, emmett16 said:

"Jordan, you had a fantastic 2022.  Your competition for playing time in MLB is X.  Here is what we believe you need to do to have success." For example.

Frazier has the job Westburg wants.

Thats the second vocabulary word I've learned today.

Quite the opposite, they are both reported to be extremely hard workers.  Iron sharpens Iron.  

 

That's assuming it's a competition.  Frazier is getting 8M.  The O's don't have a history of paying guys 8M to compete for job.

If Frazier performs as expected what does Westburg have to do to take the job away from him?

 

[Tony-OH]

5 hours ago, tntoriole said:

The intensity and venom of animosity about this one move is pretty much unparalleled in all the years I can recall on this board.  It is very peculiar. 

I think the reason why Frazier has touched such a nerve is because it's so out of touch with everything we thought Elias was about. 

He's built this great minor league system and then when he's got some guys ready to go, and he's goes out and makes a Thrift-level signing of a guy who makes a lot of money, hasn't been good for a year and half, and literally blocks a top 100 prospect who plays the same position and has over 400 PAs at AAA.

Many of us thought this would be the offseason they would at least at one impact level pitcher to the mix through free agency or trade. 

Then Elias adds Gibson and Frazier for $18 million combined this offseason when they potentially could have had Bassitt for $21 million and Westburg at 2B for major league minimum.  

Nothing against Gibson who is not a bad signing for a year, but to me, Bassitt is a much better pitcher to be sitting at the top of their rotation.

Next year's rotation of Bassitt, Rodriguez, Means, Irvin and Bradish/Kremer would have looked pretty damn good. 

No matter how you spin the Frazier signing, it's so out of left field for what this organization has been trying to do it's almost like they either thought more moves were coming and didn't materialize, or Elias is way too cautious with giving jobs to rookies out of spring training.

Honestly, outside of the Frazier deal, the rest of Elias' major moves (Irvin and McCann trades, Givens and Gibson singings) made the team better then they were.

[emmett16]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

That's assuming it's a competition.  Frazier is getting 8M.  The O's don't have a history of paying guys 8M to compete for job.

If Frazier performs as expected what does Westburg have to do to take the job away from him?

 

Yes.  I assume it's a competition and I could very well be wrong.

 

I'd say that would be a good problem to have.  If the FA we signed has a fantastic year on a one year deal while one of our top prospects gets another year of development under his belt, I'd say that's a win/win (for us, no Jordan  )

[tntoriole]

4 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

The Os have made like 4 noteworthy moves and, on their own, none of them are actually noteworthy.

There isn’t much else to talk about and that one decision effects so many different aspects of the team and so many other players.

It also calls into question the methodology on which this management group is determining who to bring in and it questions the use of the limited funds available at their disposal.

For years, we saw PA spend money..but it was almost always spent poorly. This is an example of a move where money was spent poorly.

So yea, it’s one move but that one move branches off into so many areas.

Hundreds of moves I have seen since first  following the Os in 1966.  The intensity of feeling about this one is out ofvthe notm imho and is quite disproportionate to its actual significance.  This is called projective displacement by us psychology types.  The move represents substantially more to some Os fans (ie Angelos, frustrations of losing years etc) than the merits of it warrant. 

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, emmett16 said:

Yes.  I assume it's a competition and I could very well be wrong.

 

I'd say that would be a good problem to have.  If the FA we signed has a fantastic year on a one year deal while one of our top prospects gets another year of development under his belt, I'd say that's a win/win (for us, no Jordan  )

Do you think that at some point development takes a hit if a player isn't adequately challenged?

[Explosivo]

1 minute ago, Tony-OH said:

I think the reason why Frazier has touched such a nerve is because it's so out of touch with everything we thought Elias was about. 

He's built this great minor league system and then when he's got some guys ready to go, and he's goes out and makes a Thrift-level signing of a guy who makes a lot of money, hasn't been good for a year and half, and literally blocks a top 100 prospect who plays the same position and has over 400 PAs at AAA.

Many of us thought this would be the offseason they would at least at one impact level pitcher to the mix through free agency or trade. 

Then Elias adds Gibson and Frazier for $18 million combined this offseason when they potentially could have had Bassitt for $21 million and Westburg at 2B for major league minimum.  

Nothing against Gibson who is not a bad signing for a year, but to me, Bassitt is a much better pitcher to be sitting at the top of their rotation.

Next year's rotation of Bassitt, Rodriguez, Means, Irvin and Bradish/Kremer would have looked pretty damn good. 

No matter how you spin the Frazier signing, it's so out of left field for what this organization has been trying to do it's almost like they either thought more moves were coming and didn't materialize, or Elias is way too cautious with giving jobs to rookies out of spring training.

Honestly, outside of the Frazier deal, the rest of Elias' major moves (Irvin and McCann trades, Givens and Gibson singings) made the team better then they were.

Think of it this way, we know Westburg is terrific and will likely assume duties at 2B this year. What we do not know is how quickly it will take him to start doing well. Say you hand him the job and he doesn't fair well for 1/3 of the season, you could potentially lose out on winning games during that time either by defensive mistakes or simply not hitting with runners on, who knows. All the Frazier move does is give us stability and options to play the hot hand. It's a long season and there are few positions that will field the same faces throughout its course. The ability to play guys when hot and not when cold and the flexibility to do so will yield us the most wins at the end of the year. I really think we are going to be returning to our roots with Earl Weaver and his approach to the game. We now have the options needed to succeed in that gameplan.

[emmett16]

1 minute ago, tntoriole said:

Hundreds of moves I have seen since first  following the Os in 1966.  The intensity of feeling about this one is out ofvthe notm imho and is quite disproportionate to its actual significance.  This is called projective displacement by us psychology types.  The move represents substantially more to some Os fans (ie Angelos, frustrations of losing years etc) than the merits of it warrant. 

The O's were super exciting last year.  Everyone has their hopes up for 2023.  It's February 2/2 and a bunch of die-hards are fiending for anything baseball.  

[tntoriole]

3 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

I think the reason why Frazier has touched such a nerve is because it's so out of touch with everything we thought Elias was about. 

He's built this great minor league system and then when he's got some guys ready to go, and he's goes out and makes a Thrift-level signing of a guy who makes a lot of money, hasn't been good for a year and half, and literally blocks a top 100 prospect who plays the same position and has over 400 PAs at AAA.

Many of us thought this would be the offseason they would at least at one impact level pitcher to the mix through free agency or trade. 

Then Elias adds Gibson and Frazier for $18 million combined this offseason when they potentially could have had Bassitt for $21 million and Westburg at 2B for major league minimum.  

Nothing against Gibson who is not a bad signing for a year, but to me, Bassitt is a much better pitcher to be sitting at the top of their rotation.

Next year's rotation of Bassitt, Rodriguez, Means, Irvin and Bradish/Kremer would have looked pretty damn good. 

No matter how you spin the Frazier signing, it's so out of left field for what this organization has been trying to do it's almost like they either thought more moves were coming and didn't materialize, or Elias is way too cautious with giving jobs to rookies out of spring training.

Honestly, outside of the Frazier deal, the rest of Elias' major moves (Irvin and McCann trades, Givens and Gibson singings) made the team better then they were.

I agree with all of that but honestly do believe that Adam will outperform his contract value and is an upgrade from Odor and can be flexed if Westburg  or others are ready.  We shall see.  I suspect Mike would disagree with the characterization of his analysis.   But that is why they play the games. 
If the frustration is because we all feel shortchanged by the cheap Angelos approach, then I certainly concur.  But that is not necessarily about Adam Frazier.  

[tntoriole]

3 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

Nah, we have one of these every year or so.  I would say the thing that sets the Frazier deal apart is that the intensity and the animosity is aimed at a subpar player in a way that's not been matched before. 

Well, maybe that's not true, it was aimed at Odor all last summer, with an eye on the horizon to the end of the season knowing that he wouldn't be brought back and we could celebrate that.  The Chris Davis saga. 

It wouldn't be the OH if there weren't someone or something that a lot of us were up in arms about at any given time.  Each team has a particular whipping boy, unfortunately for Frazier he's the one for 2023.

 

This is a big part of it for me, but not always for this reason.  The 8 million sucks but it's 8 million that could have been earmarked for a better pitcher than Gibson.  And so for me, these two deals are linked.  Gibson might be a modest upgrade over Lyles but that doesn't address that we needed a better pitcher, at legit #1 or #2.  They should have taken that 18 million and made a bigger move on a starting pitcher, of course it'd have to been for more than one year though. 

Or just signed Gibson and not spent 8 million.

 

This sums it up well, although I think the McCann move, while not noteworthy was pretty solid.  As solid as a backup catcher move can be.

And yes, there's not much else to talk about.

Maybe Adam will use the animosity as a motivation 

[emmett16]

2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Do you think that at some point development takes a hit if a player isn't adequately challenged?

Yes.  I think that can breed complacency.  

[Explosivo]

4 minutes ago, emmett16 said:

The O's were super exciting last year.  Everyone has their hopes up for 2023.  It's February 2/2 and a bunch of die-hards are fiending for anything baseball.  

That's not really it though. This is deeper that I frankly don't understand. 

[tntoriole]

4 minutes ago, emmett16 said:

The O's were super exciting last year.  Everyone has their hopes up for 2023.  It's February 2/2 and a bunch of die-hards are fiending for anything baseball.  

I have my hopes up every single  year since 1966 lol .. as do most all Os fans!  And yes , this is why they play the games.