Gunnar Henderson 2023

[Malike]

Just now, banks703 said:

LOL 

And yet you still haven’t told us how you’ve determined that Holliday is going to be fine as a ML shortstop. Please do.

You're blindly arguing something that you clearly have no personal knowledge or experience to go off of. You’re reading what someone else writes and regurgitating it for what reason?

I don’t think that I’m a scout because I’ve seen 30 of his games. I never claimed that. What I have stated is that I am still loosely involved with high school scouting and that I had worked closely with a scout from another ML team but they my work has made it difficult to continue doing so I am not as involved. But please keep trying to attack me personally to deviate from the argument. You also should Google ad hominem. 

Can you not read? BA, MLB.com, The Athletic, even Fangraphs think he's going to be fine as a shortstop. Because some guy said RIGHT NOW at 19, he's not defensively ready means nothing to anyone but you, apparently. I mean, you say people are trolling when you are literally doing just that. 

I've never attacked you personally, I've said your qualifications are your own opinion, that's not an insult, it's the truth. You are the one trolling with ban bets and kissing emojis like you are 12 years old. Grow up.

[banks703]

1 minute ago, Malike said:

Can you not read? BA, MLB.com, The Athletic, even Fangraphs think he's going to be fine as a shortstop. Because some guy said RIGHT NOW at 19, he's not defensively ready means nothing to anyone but you, apparently. I mean, you say people are trolling when you are literally doing just that. 

I've never attacked you personally, I've said your qualifications are your own opinion, that's not an insult, it's the truth. You are the one trolling with ban bets and kissing emojis like you are 12 years old. Grow up.

I’ve never once stated that he can’t play SS. In fact I continue to describe him as “he won’t kill you there but he won’t be your best option”…because he won’t be. You’re basing this argument off of what you read on the internet. This is the whole premise of what I have stated about him yet you and the other guy are just convinced that he’s better defensively because you think so. Derek Jeter was also “fine” at shortstop. David Eckstein was “fine” at shortstop. Jackson Holliday would be “fine” at shortstop if that’s your bar. If he ends up there he will be a below average defender. You can believe whatever you choose to believe, friend but he isn’t one of the five best defenders at the position in the system and no his arm is not going to improve as you suggest but keep drinking that kool-aid. 

[OriolesMagic83]

2 hours ago, Frobby said:

Let’s just do a little mental exercise.  Assume the following;

Holliday is an .875 OPS hitter, a 55 2B and a 50 SS.

Gunnar is an .825 OPS hitter, a 55 SS and a 60 3B

Ortiz is a .750 hitter, a 60 SS and a 65 2B.

Westburg is a .775 hitter, a 50 2B and 3B, and a 45 SS.   

Now that may not be exactly accurate, but it’s a decent approximation of what I expect.  Which three are your starters, and how do you align them?
 

Looking at this, it would seem that one of Ortiz and Westburg gets traded.  Which one would depend on if the O's think Ortiz can hit mlb pitching.  If they do, it would make sense to trade Westburg and keep the guy w/ the better glove, and I'm a big Westburg fan. 

[Malike]

4 minutes ago, banks703 said:

I’ve never once stated that he can’t play SS. In fact I continue to describe him as “he won’t kill you there but he won’t be your best option”…because he won’t be. You’re basing this argument off of what you read on the internet. This is the whole premise of what I have stated about him yet you and the other guy are just convinced that he’s better defensively because you think so. Derek Jeter was also “fine” at shortstop. David Eckstein was “fine” at shortstop. Jackson Holliday would be “fine” at shortstop if that’s your bar. If he ends up there he will be a below average defender. You can believe whatever you choose to believe, friend but he isn’t one of the five best defenders at the position in the system and no his arm is not going to improve as you suggest but keep drinking that kool-aid. 

Telling someone they are basing an argument off of what they read on the internet when you literally started this entire conversation by posting an article from the internet, go back to page 62, and read it, is fricken hilarious.

Perfect Game, you know, the people who use real data instead of things like the eye test had Holliday in the 85th percentile of arm strength two years ago, I'm sure it's gotten so much worse since he was 17. His max exit velo was 89 in 2021 while throwing. Yes, that screams he's got a noodle arm. You're acting like he has Westburg's arm. In any event, keep on scouting those HS kids, I'm sure you'll do a great job as an evaluator.

Bye for now.

[terpoh]

5 hours ago, Frobby said:

WAR doesn’t go up by runs.  Well. It sort of does, because runs convert to wins. 

Yes- it was a mistype on my part.  1 WIN.. it was also meant to be an exaggeration but he was phenomenal last night.

[banks703]

2 minutes ago, OriolesMagic83 said:

Looking at this, it would seem that one of Ortiz and Westburg gets traded.  Which one would depend on if the O's think Ortiz can hit mlb pitching.  If they do, it would make sense to trade Westburg and keep the guy w/ the better glove, and I'm a big Westburg fan. 

I personally think that Westburg is who will be dealt but admittedly some of that is driven by my personal preference of Ortiz to Westburg. I am much higher on Joey than some and see a Jack Wilson profile with him. He’s the best infield defender in the organization (though Gunnar is really closing that gap). With the development of Gunnar’s defensive game at SS this year though, I think it’s just as likely that Joey could be moved.

I personally see JW in a Ben Zobrist role with the Orioles, capably manning any infield position if needed but also playing a respectable outfield. I think there’s a lot of value in having a guy like that, especially to the O’s who clearly value positional flexibility.

I’d hate to see either of them dealt because I think they’re both very good players but there’s only so many positions and only so many roster spots. 

[banks703]

14 minutes ago, Malike said:

Telling someone they are basing an argument off of what they read on the internet when you literally started this entire conversation by posting an article from the internet, go back to page 62, and read it, is fricken hilarious.

Perfect Game, you know, the people who use real data instead of things like the eye test had Holliday in the 85th percentile of arm strength two years ago, I'm sure it's gotten so much worse since he was 17. His max exit velo was 89 in 2021 while throwing. Yes, that screams he's got a noodle arm. You're acting like he has Westburg's arm. In any event, keep on scouting those HS kids, I'm sure you'll do a great job as an evaluator.

Bye for now.

FFS You can’t even get the stats right. 
 

Max IF velocity in 7/2021 was 83MPH. 

MAX IF VELOCITY IN 7/2021 WAS 83MPH

MAX. IF. VELOCITY. IN. 7/2021. WAS. 83MPH. 

 

83MPH throwing 

 

89MPH hitting (exit velo) 

 

https://www.perfectgame.org/players/playerprofile.aspx?ID=590150

 

 

Please do yourself a favor and look at where 83 MPH would rank as a ML SS. For goodness sake. You’re looking foolish, friend. 
 

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/leaderboard/arm-strength?type=player&year=2023&minThrows=100&pos=arm_ss&team=

 

I did it for you. It would rank Holliday 47th out of 50 qualified shortstops….if that was his AVERAGE but it’s not. That was his MAX which means his AVERAGE is more likely in the 70’s. 

 

Edited September 2, 2023 by banks703

[spiritof66]

34 minutes ago, Malike said:

Can you not read? BA, MLB.com, The Athletic, even Fangraphs think he's going to be fine as a shortstop. Because some guy said RIGHT NOW at 19, he's not defensively ready means nothing to anyone but you, apparently. I mean, you say people are trolling when you are literally doing just that. 

I've never attacked you personally, I've said your qualifications are your own opinion, that's not an insult, it's the truth. You are the one trolling with ban bets and kissing emojis like you are 12 years old. Grow up.

I'm not the board police, but this post is a good example. I think you could have made your point exactly the same, with exectly the same force, if you left off the lead-off "Can you not read?" And are you accomplishing anything by arguing over who's trolling whom, ot by saying that another poster is acting like a 12-year-old. I don't think so.

Stuff like that puts a nick, sometimes a dent, in my enjoyment of the board. I don't know whether I speak for others, but I'm guessing I do. I would urge everyone to take 5 or 10 seconds before posting to think about whether nastiness and personal attacks are constructive or necessary. Maybe think in terms of Chico Marx as Chicolini: "a lemonade, a nice gold glass of lemonade" -- that is, eliminate. Or save the invective for the Lew Fords, Citos and Joey Bats of the world. And the NYYs. And the Angeloses.

Edited September 2, 2023 by spiritof66

[Malike]

1 minute ago, spiritof66 said:

I'm not the board police, but this post is a good example. I think you could have made your point exactly the same, with exectly the same force, if you left off the lead-off "Can you not read?" And are you accomplishing anything by arguing over who's trolling whom, ot by saying that another poster is acting like a 12-year-old. I don't think so.

Stuff like that puts a nick, sometimes a dent, in my enjoyment of the board. I don't know whether I speak for others, but I'm guessing I do. I would urge everyone to take 5 or 10 seconds before posting to think about whether nastiness and personal attacks are constructive or necessary. Maybe think in terms of Chico Marx as Chicolini: "a lemonade, a nice gold glass of lemonade" -- that is, eliminate. Or save the invective for the Lew Fords, Citos and Joey Bats of the world. And the NYYs.

I mean, its a valid question when you've cited where you've gotten your information half a dozen times and someone says, where did you get your information, so I'll stand by it.

[banks703]

1 minute ago, spiritof66 said:

I'm not the board police, but this post is a good example. I think you could have made your point exactly the same, with exectly the same force, if you left off the lead-off "Can you not read?" And are you accomplishing anything by arguing over who's trolling whom, ot by saying that another poster is acting like a 12-year-old. I don't think so.

Stuff like that puts a nick, sometimes a dent, in my enjoyment of the board. I don't know whether I speak for others, but I'm guessing I do. I would urge everyone to take 5 or 10 seconds before posting to think about whether nastiness and personal attacks are constructive or necessary. Maybe think in terms of Chico Marx as Chicolini: "a lemonade, a nice gold glass of lemonade" -- that is, eliminate. Or save the invective for the Lew Fords, Citos and Joey Bats of the world. And the NYYs.

It’s my fault. I’m going completely against what I tell my players and my employees - it’s more important to do right than to be right. I’m not doing a very good job here of practicing what I preach. 

[banks703]

Anybody know where we can find stats on 6-3 double plays. I swear Gunnar has to lead baseball in these. 

[Say O!]

1 hour ago, banks703 said:

Anybody know where we can find stats on 6-3 double plays. I swear Gunnar has to lead baseball in these. 

what to make of Gunnar’s higher bWAR?  If reading correctly, it’s due to more favorable dWAR which based on DRS (of which double plays a component).  As Banks points out, Gunnar excels in those.

[Frobby]

2 hours ago, banks703 said:

Anybody know where we can find stats on 6-3 double plays. I swear Gunnar has to lead baseball in these. 

As a matter of fact, you’re correct.  Gunnar is tied for the lead in that category, with 9 6-3 DPs.  Javier Baez is the other one with 9, and he’s had more than double the playing time at SS as Gunnar.  The O’s lead the majors with 15 6-3 DP’s, 9 by Gunnar, 5 by Mateo, 1 by Ortiz.  No other team has more than 12.

You can find all this information on this page of BB-ref, under either Team Advanced Fielding or Player Advanced Fielding.  In those sections, scroll right and you’ll see a breakdown of the various types of double plays.  

[George Zuverink]

17 hours ago, spiritof66 said:

I'm not the board police, but this post is a good example. I think you could have made your point exactly the same, with exectly the same force, if you left off the lead-off "Can you not read?" And are you accomplishing anything by arguing over who's trolling whom, ot by saying that another poster is acting like a 12-year-old. I don't think so.

Stuff like that puts a nick, sometimes a dent, in my enjoyment of the board. I don't know whether I speak for others, but I'm guessing I do. I would urge everyone to take 5 or 10 seconds before posting to think about whether nastiness and personal attacks are constructive or necessary. Maybe think in terms of Chico Marx as Chicolini: "a lemonade, a nice gold glass of lemonade" -- that is, eliminate. Or save the invective for the Lew Fords, Citos and Joey Bats of the world. And the NYYs. And the Angeloses.

Yes!Yes!Yes! Stuff like that is why I’m frustrated I haven’t been able to make the Ignore function work.

[banks703]

3 hours ago, Frobby said:

As a matter of fact, you’re correct.  Gunnar is tied for the lead in that category, with 9 6-3 DPs.  Javier Baez is the other one with 9, and he’s had more than double the playing time at SS as Gunnar.  The O’s lead the majors with 15 6-3 DP’s, 9 by Gunnar, 5 by Mateo, 1 by Ortiz.  No other team has more than 12.

You can find all this information on this page of BB-ref, under either Team Advanced Fielding or Player Advanced Fielding.  In those sections, scroll right and you’ll see a breakdown of the various types of double plays.  

Damn! Nice pull!

I’m not surprised by that. The one he turned last night got me thinking about it. He takes more than anyone else I can remember. I wonder how many he would have if he played the entire year at SS.