Gunnar Henderson 2023

[banks703]

28 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

The Os took Holliday because they, as in Mike Elias ( I know, you know more than him and so does someone who writes for FG) believes he’s a SS at the Ml level.

That was his stated reason for taking him..ie, the tie breaker.

Now, has/will Gunnar develop at a level that is so good that the team feels they can’t move him off of SS?  I don’t know, we will see. We will see if Gunnar outgrows the position.

Lots to be seen. What I do know is it is absolutely stupid to act as if the book is already written and ignore what so many have said about his skill set as a SS since the day he was drafted, before and after it.

You keep saying the same stuff. No offense but your opinion on his skills don’t mean anything to me. I just don’t value it. I don’t even value my own. I haven’t seen him enough to make an informed opinion on it.

But I do value the opinions of so many that have written about it. I value the opinion of Elias and the Os organization. So I’m not closing the book on him at SS and I’m not going to act like some throw that took multiple hops from shallow LF is some throw that can’t be made.  
 

 

Of course they're going to develop Holliday as a SS and they'll continue to say as much. No one is arguing that. Is Elias going to tell the world that he doesn't have confidence in Holliday as a SS? LOL Get real. Of course he won't say that. The best case scenario for the org is if Holliday can in fact play well enough there defensively that they move Gunnar to third. They will stick with the plan to play Holliday at SS until his bat forces them to promote him to the big club, which could happen as early as next year. What they will not do, under no circumstances, is move a better defender off of SS in favor of the weaker defender. Look at how long it took them to move off of Mateo this year. Gunnar would have to be Jorge Mateo for them to move him for Holliday and I don't see that happening. 

What I have been posting (and this will remain true for eternity) is that Holliday's physical limitations, particularly with the arm strength, cannot be improved to a level that you want from a premier defensive position. The kid is a fantastic prospect. It's true. He has more talent for hitting a baseball than I'll ever have at anything in my life, probably combined. I'm not trying to poopoo on him. He's the number 1 prospect in all of baseball for a reason... but that reason is his ability to hit, not to play defense. If he was being brought through the system as a 2B, he would still be the top prospect... because of his bat.

I've seen A LOT of Holliday and it's alright that you don't take my word for it but I'm not just posting out of the side of my mouth. I am still loosely involved in scouting but my work has made it difficult for me to maintain that involvement. I don't know everything. But we're going to see more articles like the fangraphs article that will detail more about his profile as a defensive player. Can he play SS? Sure but so can my six year old nephew. If you want a David Eckstein defender to play the most important infield position, then Holliday is your guy. He's not going to kill you there but he's just not going to be the best defensive option for you there, not ever.

There are better defensive prospects/players in the system for SS; Gunnar and Ortiz being two of them, Westburg being another .. all older than Holliday, true but the little bit that I've seen of Arias already has me putting him a notch above Holliday as a defender and he's about 14 months younger than Holliday.

There are things in life that we can say with certainty. Like, after an ankle and a knee injury and now being 38, at my 5'9 (on a good day) height, I'm never going to dunk a basketball on a ten foot rim again. I'm never going to travel to Antarctica. Jackson Holliday is never going to develop the arm strength to make him an elite defender at SS.  

[banks703]

9 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Of course he said that. That’s keeping a players value as high as possible. Saying that is completely different than what he was saying about Holliday and why he drafted him. 

So, if I'm following you here, we should believe Elias when what he says about Holliday supports your position on the future of SS for the Orioles but when he says the same thing about another player, which doesn't support your position on the future of SS  for the Orioles, he's just talking up a prospect.

Did I correctly read that?

[Sports Guy]

3 minutes ago, banks703 said:

Of course they're going to develop Holliday as a SS and they'll continue to say as much. No one is arguing that. Is Elias going to tell the world that he doesn't have confidence in Holliday as a SS? LOL Get real. Of course he won't say that. The best case scenario for the org is if Holliday can in fact play well enough there defensively that they move Gunnar to third. They will stick with the plan to play Holliday at SS until his bat forces them to promote him to the big club, which could happen as early as next year. What they will not do, under no circumstances, is move a better defender off of SS in favor of the weaker defender. Look at how long it took them to move off of Mateo this year. Gunnar would have to be Jorge Mateo for them to move him for Holliday and I don't see that happening. 

What I have been posting (and this will remain true for eternity) is that Holliday's physical limitations, particularly with the arm strength, cannot be improved to a level that you want from a premier defensive position. The kid is a fantastic prospect. It's true. He has more talent for hitting a baseball than I'll ever have at anything in my life, probably combined. I'm not trying to poopoo on him. He's the number 1 prospect in all of baseball for a reason... but that reason is his ability to hit, not to play defense. If he was being brought through the system as a 2B, he would still be the top prospect... because of his bat.

I've seen A LOT of Holliday and it's alright that you don't take my word for it but I'm not just posting out of the side of my mouth. I am still loosely involved in scouting but my work has made it difficult for me to maintain that involvement. I don't know everything. But we're going to see more articles like the fangraphs article that will detail more about his profile as a defensive player. Can he play SS? Sure but so can my six year old nephew. If you want a David Eckstein defender to play the most important infield position, then Holliday is your guy. He's not going to kill you there but he's just not going to be the best defensive option for you there, not ever.

There are better defensive prospects/players in the system for SS; Gunnar and Ortiz being two of them, Westburg being another .. all older than Holliday, true but the little bit that I've seen of Arias already has me putting him a notch above Holliday as a defender and he's about 14 months younger than Holliday.

There are things in life that we can say with certainty. Like, after an ankle and a knee injury and now being 38, at my 5'9 (on a good day) height, I'm never going to dunk a basketball on a ten foot rim again. I'm never going to travel to Antarctica. Jackson Holliday is never going to develop the arm strength to make him an elite defender at SS.  

He would not be the #1 prospect if he was a second baseman.

[Frobby]

6 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

I can see a world in which our best group is Ortiz SS, Gunnar 3B, and Holliday 2B. Of course I can see one in which Holliday is the SS. I don't think either is locked in. I agree with you that the book is not "already written" for Gunnar SS. Holliday may even still be the favorite. But I can imagine future scenarios where any of the three is SS for a long time.

I agree 100%.   The next couple of years will be interesting.  There’s many ways this could go.  

[banks703]

Just now, Sports Guy said:

He would not be the #1 prospect if he was a second baseman.

Says who?

[Sports Guy]

Just now, banks703 said:

So, if I'm following you here, we should believe Elias when what he says about Holliday supports your position on the future of SS for the Orioles but when he says the same thing about another player, which doesn't support your position on the future of SS  for the Orioles, he's just talking up a prospect.

Did I correctly read that?

No, you absolutely read it and interpreted it incorrectly. Your fundamental lack of understanding of those statements is astoundingly awful.

[baltfan]

4 hours ago, Aristotelian said:

That whole game was a defensive masterclass by Gunnar. In addition to the catch and throw double play, he had a tough short hop off a liner and a tough backhander on a bouncer, as well as a GIDP he turned himself. The fly ball double play was special though. Maybe he learns that he is better off when he takes a second to plant before he throws.

And apparently he had a play he should have made because his OAA went from 1 to 0 last night. 

[Sports Guy]

Just now, banks703 said:

Says who?

Common sense. 
 

First of all, his age has a lot to do with it.

Secondly, he is showing good but not great power. 
 

It’s his whole profile..his position, his speed/SB/baserunning, hit tool,age and yes, The fact that he was drafted #1, etc..it’s all of it.

I actually can buy the argument that he shouldn’t be the #1 pick whether he’s at true ML SS or not.

But no way he’s the #1 prospect of he’s “just a second baseman”.

[banks703]

8 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

I can see a world in which our best group is Ortiz SS, Gunnar 3B, and Holliday 2B. 

This has been what I have been posting now for almost a year. Holliday's profile is best suited for 2B or the outfield. Even with Gunnar's improvement at SS this year, I still consider Ortiz to be the best defender at SS in the organization. I would only put EBJ above him as far as the best overall defender in the org. It remains to be seen if they will truly give Ortiz a chance to compete for a ML roster spot next year or if they trade him. I personally think that they should trade him if they don't intend to use him as an everyday SS.  

[banks703]

4 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

No, you absolutely read it and interpreted it incorrectly. Your fundamental lack of understanding of those statements is astoundingly awful.

OK - explain to me like I'm five years old how I misunderstood these words:

 

Of course he said that. That’s keeping a players value as high as possible. Saying that is completely different than what he was saying about Holliday and why he drafted him.

 

LOL

You're wild, dude. 

 

[banks703]

5 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Common sense. 
 

First of all, his age has a lot to do with it.

Secondly, he is showing good but not great power. 
 

It’s his whole profile..his position, his speed/SB/baserunning, hit tool,age and yes, The fact that he was drafted #1, etc..it’s all of it.

I actually can buy the argument that he shouldn’t be the #1 pick whether he’s at true ML SS or not.

But no way he’s the #1 prospect of he’s “just a second baseman”.

So, that's your opinion, right? The one that you just wrote a little bit before that you equally don't trust with respect to mine, right?

You're contradicting your contradictions, my man.

Would you say that your friends would describe you as difficult to get along with?

[Sports Guy]

7 minutes ago, banks703 said:

OK - explain to me like I'm five years old how I misunderstood these words:

 

Of course he said that. That’s keeping a players value as high as possible. Saying that is completely different than what he was saying about Holliday and why he drafted him.

 

LOL

You're wild, dude. 

 

The comment about Ortiz is GM speak and exactly what he should say. Him selling Ortiz as a SS is where his most value is.

When he drafts Holliday, he tells you why he drafts him. He had his choice of every single player that was available. He took him. He had his reasons but one of the reasons he publicly stated was because they feel he is a ML SS.  He could have taken Johnson or Jones or whoever but he took Holliday.  He doesn’t have to sell us on that in terms of trade value. He is just explaining to us why he chose him over someone else.

Stating why he takes 1 player out of 100s available vs talking up a player to keep up their value for a potential trade are 2 completely different things and if you are “involved in the scouting world”, you should absolutely understand that and know the difference.

Edited September 2, 2023 by Sports Guy

[Sports Guy]

Just now, banks703 said:

So, that's your opinion, right? The one that you just wrote a little bit before that you equally don't trust with respect to mine, right?

You're contradicting your contradictions, my man.

Would you say that your friends would describe you as difficult to get along with?

It’s not my opinion..it’s the one written time and time again by everyone who writes up their opinions about Holliday. Not one report on Holliday has said, we rate him #1 because of his bat and nothing else.  You show me one that says that.

[banks703]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

The comment about Ortiz is GM speak and exactly what he should say. Hi selling Ortiz as a SS is where his most value is.

When he drafts Holliday, he tells you why he drafts him. He had his choice of every single player that was available. He took him. He had his reasons but one of the reasons he publicly stated was because they feel he is a ML SS. 

Stating why he takes 1 player out of 100s available vs talking up a player to keep up their value for a potential trade are 2 completely different things and if you are “involved in the scouting world”, you should absolutely understand that and know the difference.

And I wrote the exact same thing about Ortiz and the exact same thing about Holliday. It's GM speak for both players.

It's your opinion that when he says it about Ortiz that he's just talking up a prospect to keep his value high but that he actually really means it when he says it about Holliday. Get out of here, man. I get that you refuse to ever admit to being wrong but it's comical at this point.

Who do you think is stronger, my dad or your dad?

[Frobby]

3 hours ago, terpoh said:

His WAR shouldve gone up about a run from his defense last night alone. 

WAR doesn’t go up by runs.  Well. It sort of does, because runs convert to wins.