First Infielder Off the Ship

[sportsfan8703]

If Vavra and all of his athleticism can play OF for us then why can’t Norby or Westburg this year?  Like put them out there in the OF right now. 

[wildcard]

11 minutes ago, foxfield said:

It will be the worst one Elias can move who brings back quality SP.  It could be Mateo, it could be Urias, it could be anyone.  I do not necessarily think this is the case, but an argument could be made for focusing early on Mateo and Urias in the hopes that they can be moved for quality SP.

 

And there is a lot that goes into making the call.  How many years of service do I get for said quality SP?  Is it a quality #3 or #4?  Or is it a #1 or #2?  I would prefer to not move guys we control for 6 years for pitching that will be here for only 2 years.  But what is the market.  The ideal situation is one of the front runners needs an INF who can play now but people don't give away arms that are ready on purpose.

But your opening line is incorrect.  We do not have too many infielders.  We have tremendous depth.  That is it's own problem, because as your line insinuates, you can't play them all.  So that capital is going to have to be reinvested...What we need is a favorable market.

I see these posts that the O's need pitching.    I don't see it that way.

They have Gibson and Wells doing well.  GRod has to be in the rotation and he has great stuff.  Bradish will be in the rotation this week for the Nats series.    

The fifth starter is between Kremer, Watkins, Irvin and Zimmermann.    Hall has a start today in AAA.  Means is on track to be in the rotation in July.

I don't see that the O's need to trade for starting pitching.

I would not trade a top 20 prospect for a reliever.   Elias finds those guys without giving up much.

There will be trades in July and the prime candidate for me are Frazier, Santander,  Gibson,  Givens, McCann, O Hearn, and Coulombe.   Not that all of them will be traded but Elias will be listening on some of them because of their contract status and depending on how the youngsters are doing.

Pushing from the minors are Westburg, Ortiz, Norby, Cowser and Stowers.   Kjerstad may be knocking by August.   Handley, Haskin, Lester, Hall,  Zimermann, Rom,  Krehbiel, Darwinzon Herandez, Vespi and did you see what Denoyer did the other night.

[Just Regular]

Just as a thought exercise if we contend and they flop, who is the best individual Oriole you would give 6 years of for 2-3 months of Ohtani?

It is a given for me that Elias will try to structure his bids as poo-poo platters in the Astros style of Verlander-Cole-Greinke, but this is assuming Minasian asks Clubs submit a final bid in the style of Zack Wheeler for Carlos Beltran?

I hope in 3 months Elias has some options to consider, but it is reasonably likely one SP will be well above all others in July.

Edited April 15, 2023 by Just Regular

[RZNJ]

26 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Norby is 22 (23 in June).  Not even on the 40 man roster and has 3 options left.   I don't know that the O's will be in any hurry to move him this year. JMO

All reasons why Norby has value as a piece for a starting pitcher at the deadline if they decide to go that way.

[Bemorewins]

6 minutes ago, backdoorslider said:

 

If you offload meh you get meh in return. I want a #2 starter. That will take something quality.

I agree completely!

[sportsfan8703]

Just now, wildcard said:

I see these posts that the O's need pitching.    I don't see it that way.

They have Gibson and Wells doing well.  GRod has to be in the rotation and he has great stuff.  Bradish will be in the rotation this week for the Nats series.    

The fifth starter is between Kremer, Watkins, Irvin and Zimmermann.    Hall has a start today in AAA.  Means is on track to be in the rotation in July.

I don't see that the O's need to trade for starting pitching.

I would not trade a top 20 prospect for a reliever.   Elias finds those guys without giving up much.

There will be trades in July and the prime candidate for me are Frazier, Santander,  Gibson,  Givens, McCann, O Hearn, and Coulombe.   Not that all of them will be traded but Elias will be listening on some of them because of their contract status and depending on how the youngsters are doing.

Pushing from the minors are Westburg, Ortiz, Norby, Cowser and Stowers.   Kjerstad may be knocking by August.   Handley, Haskin, Lester, Hall,  Zimermann, Rom,  Krehbiel, Darwinzon Herandez, Vespi and did you see what Denoyer did the other night.

I see that opinion, but that’s kind of wanting it both ways. We have to value this season more than previous seasons. Service year 1 for Gunnar. Service year 2 for Adley. Adley is playing at an MVP level. 
 

The window is wide open. It’s time to play Norby and Westburg in COF. Time to consider Mateo as a backup CF or COF. 
 

You’re right that we can bandaid a staff together until July. Especially if we get Givens and Tate back. 
 

I’m not asking for Elias to do anything drastic, but this team needs to explore some pitching options. I know… everyone hates the Britton idea, but it’s just an idea. Let’s see what Cano and Khriebel can do as well before we overpay for a reliever. I agree there. But even if everything breaks right, we still need at least another mid rotation SP. 

[foxfield]

2 minutes ago, backdoorslider said:

 

If you offload meh you get meh in return. I want a #2 starter. That will take something quality.

Unless you are talking about Frazier or Vavra....I think there is very little Meh on the Orioles positionally.  McKenna isn't brining anything back obviously. But Urias is a gold glove controllable player who is very undervalued here at OH.  Santander and Hays are not bringing back any Cy Young potential for sure, but they have value.  

And the prospects are just that until they are not.  Tim Beckham was quite the prospect for the Rays and didn't pan out.  It happens.  Everyone just assumes the O's prospects are all going to hit.  

I don't disagree with what you are saying.  No one is trading a GrayRod for a year plus of Santander.  But if the cost is two top prospects for said pitcher, he is going to have to have  more than 2 years or be willing to extend.  

That is really the challenge here.  Converting unused talent into usable talent, but doing so without trading 18 years of service for 2 or 3...unless you believe you are trading those years and the production is not going to match the hype or it's the one piece you have to have to win a WS.  Thin line.

DD gave away a lot of talent to win during his run. Sometimes it was worth it but the cost was heavy and the flag pole is still bare.

 

I think this situation is the single most interesting thing we have gotten to experience as O's fans at least a generation and it makes it easier for me to have some patience but like everyone else it is hard.  To know that the Orioles are young and talented and yet still have to wonder everyday if we are going to get 1, 3 or 5 innings from SP or if the BP is going to implode.

This year is hopefully the last year we have to hope that the pitching is good.  Last year our hopes were answered, maybe it still will be this year.  But by next year it needs to be more obvious that it is championship caliber.  IMHO

[oriole]

Since this organization refuses to spend any money and also has very little in terms of pitching, the smart thing seems to be to trade the players going into arbitration for whatever pitching you can get and whatever funds that opens up, use it to buy more pitching in free agency. 
 

Urias, Mateo, Santander, Hays, Mullins, even Mountcastle if Kjerstad becomes a 1B prospect…they all go as they get expensive for arms and then use that money to get more. Hopefully an infield consisting of Henderson, Westburg, Ortiz, Vavra and Norby can be good. That’s not even including Holliday and Mayo who aren’t too far behind if some of those guys pan out.

[Bemorewins]

I know that this is an infield thread so I will stick with that, but we will have to trade more than infielders because we have an serious imbalance of talent stock in both Majors & Minors between hitting and pitching.

1) The most obvious infield trade candidate is Joey Ortiz in my mind. He is a top 100 prospect who is Major League ready. He is also a redundant prospect for us with Jackson Holiday being behind him, but much higher ranked as a former 1:1. Ortiz also has no place to play in our already overcrowded Major League infield. Even if we replaced Mateo with him (which I wouldn’t want to do because I believe Ortiz has more value in a trade), he would only be placing holding the position for a year or year in a half at most. And then we would have to trade him anyway.

2. Roman Urias - He’s a decent player. Good 3rd base defense, ok bat, average speed. But he’s holding up a spot for Westburg. Both of them should not occupy the same ML roster as they offer very similar things.

3. One of Norby or Mayo. Again where are they going to play? If Westburg is at 2nd, Mateo or Ortiz is at SS, and Gunnar is at 3rd; where do they fit in? The outfield? Only problem is the Mullins and Hays aren’t going anywhere, so that leaves RF. If you want to use Santander as a DH exclusive that’s fine. But again that means only one of them can occupy RF. And that is only until Cowser or Kerstad take their place. 
 

Conclusion: We have way too many positional players in the org and not enough places to put them.

[foxfield]

13 minutes ago, wildcard said:

I see these posts that the O's need pitching.    I don't see it that way.

They have Gibson and Wells doing well.  GRod has to be in the rotation and he has great stuff.  Bradish will be in the rotation this week for the Nats series.    

The fifth starter is between Kremer, Watkins, Irvin and Zimmermann.    Hall has a start today in AAA.  Means is on track to be in the rotation in July.

I don't see that the O's need to trade for starting pitching.

I would not trade a top 20 prospect for a reliever.   Elias finds those guys without giving up much.

There will be trades in July and the prime candidate for me are Frazier, Santander,  Gibson,  Givens, McCann, O Hearn, and Coulombe.   Not that all of them will be traded but Elias will be listening on some of them because of their contract status and depending on how the youngsters are doing.

Pushing from the minors are Westburg, Ortiz, Norby, Cowser and Stowers.   Kjerstad may be knocking by August.   Handley, Haskin, Lester, Hall,  Zimermann, Rom,  Krehbiel, Darwinzon Herandez, Vespi and did you see what Denoyer did the other night.

I agree they have pitching and I agree that it is better.  But none of us see this staff as Championship caliber unless almost everything goes right.  What I really like is how much depth there is...even if its not top shelf.  But the O's are going to have success this year,  or not, based on their pitching.  I do not worry about defense, I don't worry about offense.  We can't control injuries.  This team is pretty talented.  IF the pitching is strong enough this team has October potential.  If it is not, it won't.

[eddie83]

I don’t know is my answer. So far the infield production has been solid. Gunnar is the one scuffling. I’m not sure any infielders are off the ship this year. 
 

I think it’s worth watching to see if Westburg keeps playing in the OF at AAA. I could see them using him there in the second half of the season. 

[Bemorewins]

After reading through this thread a bit more, I see that there are some who still want to operate in rebuild mode by trading away guys who can help us win for more prospects. To that I ask - When will winning at the Major League level be top priority for you?

If our owner is lukewarm or disinterested in signing Adley long term, that means we only have him for 4 years after this. It’s great to have a bunch of young players but they take time to acclimate to the Majors as we are seeing with Gunnar. If we go that route again next year, that is another year of not being serious championship contenders while we have Adley. Are you comfortable with this?

Laslty, to those saying we don’t need pitching, I ask: What staff would you take our pitchers in for a playoff series? Do we have better starters than the Rays, Jays, Yankees, Guardians, Mariners, or Astros?

If the answer is no (which to me only the Jays argument can be made with very Orange colored glasses). What plan do you propose for postseason success against these teams given their rosters? Hope for Grayson to become an ace and what else? Would you take Kremer or Bradish over their #2 and #3 starters? Is that is reasonable beat to place our postseason lives on?

[Bemorewins]

15 minutes ago, oriole said:

Since this organization refuses to spend any money and also has very little in terms of pitching, the smart thing seems to be to trade the players going into arbitration for whatever pitching you can get and whatever funds that opens up, use it to buy more pitching in free agency. 
 

Urias, Mateo, Santander, Hays, Mullins, even Mountcastle if Kjerstad becomes a 1B prospect…they all go as they get expensive for arms and then use that money to get more. Hopefully an infield consisting of Henderson, Westburg, Ortiz, Vavra and Norby can be good. That’s not even including Holliday and Mayo who aren’t too far behind if some of those guys pan out.

My only hope is that the front office and ownership begins to value winning. 
 

I’m absolutely all the way out on being forced as a fan to prioritize a billion dollar corporation’s profit margin. If it comes down to it, where they trade Mullins, Hays, and Mountcastle; I’m done! Because that will only mean that Adley, Gunnar and the rest will only follow in time. And at that point, winning is then not a priority and I am volunteering to sign up as a fan for indefinite misery as long as the owner makes money. No thanks!

[foxfield]

2 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

After reading through this thread a bit more, I see that there are some who still want to operate in rebuild mode by trading away guys who can help us win for more prospects. To that I ask - When will winning at the Major League level be top priority for you?

If our owner is lukewarm or disinterested in signing Adley long term, that means we only have him for 4 years after this. It’s great to have a bunch of young players but they take time to acclimate to the Majors as we are seeing with Gunnar. If we go that route again next year, that is another year of not being serious championship contenders while we have Adley. Are you comfortable with this?

Laslty, to those saying we don’t need pitching, I ask: What staff would you take our pitchers in for a playoff series? Do we have better starters than the Rays, Jays, Yankees, Guardians, Mariners, or Astros?

If the answer is no (which to me only the Jays argument can be made with very Orange colored glasses). What plan do you propose for postseason success against these teams given their rosters? Hope for Grayson to become an ace and what else? Would you take Kremer or Bradish over their #2 and #3 starters? Is that is reasonable beat to place our postseason lives on?

I missed all the rebuild quotes.

I think what is missing is perspective.  This time last year we were still complaining here a lot that the Orioles were not serious in even fielding a proper MLB team.  The Orioles are on the rise.  They may not be primed for the bright lights, but it's not hard to see that change.

It's an interesting spot to be in in April of '23.  I can easily see anyone saying the Orioles are, at best, the 4th best team in the AL East and barely a competitor for a wildcard.  On the other hand, if the SP can solidify around those that are here and those that are already coming, and the BP can get healthy, I can see this team being someone nobody wants to play by the end of the summer.

It's early, and the Orioles have not pitched consistently well and have had some obvious defensive hiccups.  But if you look at the Wildcard standings this am, the Orioles are ahead of three of the six teams you list above.  Again, it's not even May.  I think we all agree that to be a serious contender the Orioles will need an Ace.  Maybe that is Grayson.  But more likely that person isn't on the roster today.  You don't win the league in April or May, but you can let it get away.  The Orioles are in the hunt.

Let's enjoy the new normal.  And still be ok raising expectations without promoting the idea that losing today portends the end of the season.  It's a marathon and while I won't be satisfied until the O's hang another WS Banner....the idea that we can compete beyond April is very refreshing.  

[owknows]

13 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

My only hope is that the front office and ownership begins to value winning.

 

I guess someone forgot to tell the front office to ixnay on the inningway...  cuz they're winning now.