Memorial Day and the trade deadline

[RZNJ]

5 minutes ago, AnythingO's said:

Your obsession with spending 2-3 top 100 prospects to acquire a TOR SP NOW is NOT built on a sound foundation IMHO. Today (after Gunnar& GRod) we have 7 prospects in MLB's Top 100. Jackson is off limits. Of the remaining 6, Ortiz is already here and makes Urias redundant (trade bait). The next injury to Santander or Hays brings Cowser up. Santander will not be extended and gets more expensive, redundant (trade bait). Down to 4, Westburg or Ortiz are your next 2B or SS as a bridge to Jackson (depending on Mateo). You are now down to 3, Kjerstad, Hall, and Norby left over in your plethora of Top 100 prospects. HK is being transitioned to 1B and his bat is DH/1B playable next year. Hall will fail as a SP and move to RP. Norby doesn't really have a plus defensive position. Santander, Urias, Norby, and Hall doesn't bring the kind of TOR you desire, with multi-year control. Jackson and Mayo will NOT be here next year, other than a cup of coffee, ME is trying to stagger these guys to have a longer pipeline. ME will want a decision on HK before rushing Mayo or changing his position, as 3B is Gunnar's. The next bunch: Beavers, Wagner, Fabian, etc. are years away.

What do consider years away?   Wagner, Fabian, and Beavers are basically  where Norby and Cowser were last year doing the same or better.  I suspect all three will get 2-3 months at Bowie this year and could even follow the Norby/Cowser timeline.

[AnythingO's]

7 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

What do consider years away?   Wagner, Fabian, and Beavers are basically  where Norby and Cowser were last year doing the same or better.  I suspect all three will get 2-3 months at Bowie this year and could even follow the Norby/Cowser timeline.

I can see those 3 plus Jackson getting 2-3 at Bowie this year. My years away comment was more about high Top 100 ranking above 50. Cowser is there now but HK and Westburg are 50, 51. I expect HK, Westburg, Cowser, and Ortiz to all be on the O's later this year or all of next year. No more Frazier, Santander, OLeary, Vavra spots. The next wave is going to get this years Westburg treatment, and that includes Jackson and Mayo. ME will want to stretch the pipeline as much as possible. The next way will have to dislodge an incumbent in 2025 or later.

[Bemorewins]

6 minutes ago, AnythingO's said:

Your obsession with spending 2-3 top 100 prospects to acquire a TOR SP NOW is NOT built on a sound foundation IMHO. Today (after Gunnar& GRod) we have 7 prospects in MLB's Top 100. Jackson is off limits. Of the remaining 6, Ortiz is already here and makes Urias redundant (trade bait). The next injury to Santander or Hays brings Cowser up. Santander will not be extended and gets more expensive, redundant (trade bait). Down to 4, Westburg or Ortiz are your next 2B or SS as a bridge to Jackson (depending on Mateo). You are now down to 3, Kjerstad, Hall, and Norby left over in your plethora of Top 100 prospects. HK is being transitioned to 1B and his bat is DH/1B playable next year. Hall will fail as a SP and move to RP. Norby doesn't really have a plus defensive position. Santander, Urias, Norby, and Hall doesn't bring the kind of TOR you desire, with multi-year control. Jackson and Mayo will NOT be here next year, other than a cup of coffee, ME is trying to stagger these guys to have a longer pipeline. ME will want a decision on HK before rushing Mayo or changing his position, as 3B is Gunnar's. The next bunch: Beavers, Wagner, Fabian, etc. are years away.

Is it an "obsession" with spending prospects or is it a desire and belief that this team can win BOTH NOW and in the forseeable future IF we are willing to do what it takes? I guess that's a matter of perspective/opinion?

I agree that Holliday should be off limits. Even if you subtract him and add the two who will likely be joining that list soon, there is still an overabundance of position players IMO.

As far as, Urias and Santander being "trade bait" goes, what value do you think that they have? Or should I ask what we be MORE valuable to a rebuilding team who is looking to offload players, young assets/prospects or more expensive players with less years of team control? That seems like a common sense notion to me. Maybe not?

Why would we waste an asset as "a bridge"? I'm not sure how much you have been following Holliday but he will be ready for that spot next year (like probably by OD) so then what happens to the SS "bridge"? I'm not sure where you got the underlined from? Holliday in all honest could be probably brought to the Big Leagues by September if they wanted to. News flash, he's that good and that much better than than Westburg and/or Ortiz. The kid has a career minor on base percentage of over .500 (in a relatively small sample size). Though the sample size is relatively small (almost 60 games) and it's just A level competition, what other minor leaguer have we had EVER to put up numbers anything like that at ANY LEVEL over that kind of time span?

See, I don't believe in that "pipeline" philosophy like you. I think it is very arrogant and foolish to be uber dogmatic about that kind of approach. The Rays have a system of development that has continued to churn out ELITE pitching for 15+ years. We have shown over the last five years the ability to produce ELITE bullpen guys. I don't see ONE not a SINGLE ONE, ELITE starting pitcher that we have developed. I guess Means could be in the running, but I believe that he was here before Elias. Grayson we HOPE can become that, but in order to compete in the post season it will need to come from somewhere. I wish the O's didn't have a horrible owner and would actually spend money on good players. But since that is unlikely, how else do you suggest that we make the starting pitching improvements in order to challenge seriously for a WS? What odds would you give us in defeating 3 AL opponents in consecutive rounds with the staff that we have? Would we be the favorite in ANY ROUND against any of the likely teams that we would have to face?

How long are you comfortable having a disadvantage in the postseason? Just this season? Next? Indefinitely? I value winning and putting together a complete team more than being able to uphold this "pipeline notion" or the need to have an all "homegrown team". I just want to see World Series games played in the city that I love.

[RVAOsFan]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

I don't think "top prospect" and "potentially have value" are the same thing.  I don't think someone down the list should be off limits.

I’m not really following what you are saying but that’s ok this horse is dead as far as I’m concerned 

[eddie83]

How Means looks will play a significant role in this conversation.  

[SilentJames]

Agreed, Means it the wild card here. If Means comes back and is himself from the jump then there is your stopper arm that slots in the middle of the rotation. Wells is probably the odd man out in that respect, maybe even Grayson simply because he has options (if he doesn't become more consistent). 

[Sports Guy]

11 hours ago, eddie83 said:

How Means looks will play a significant role in this conversation.  

I don’t think you can count on him. I’m sure he will pitch but how good will he be? There are plenty of innings to go around.

The inevitable move to the pen or shut down of Wells and Rodriguez almost ensure that.

Couple that with unknowns of Kremer and Bradish plus the likelihood of some injuries and I think it’s obvious that we need someone else other than Means.

[Orioles0615]

12 hours ago, AnythingO's said:

Your obsession with spending 2-3 top 100 prospects to acquire a TOR SP NOW is NOT built on a sound foundation IMHO. Today (after Gunnar& GRod) we have 7 prospects in MLB's Top 100. Jackson is off limits. Of the remaining 6, Ortiz is already here and makes Urias redundant (trade bait). The next injury to Santander or Hays brings Cowser up. Santander will not be extended and gets more expensive, redundant (trade bait). Down to 4, Westburg or Ortiz are your next 2B or SS as a bridge to Jackson (depending on Mateo). You are now down to 3, Kjerstad, Hall, and Norby left over in your plethora of Top 100 prospects. HK is being transitioned to 1B and his bat is DH/1B playable next year. Hall will fail as a SP and move to RP. Norby doesn't really have a plus defensive position. Santander, Urias, Norby, and Hall doesn't bring the kind of TOR you desire, with multi-year control. Jackson and Mayo will NOT be here next year, other than a cup of coffee, ME is trying to stagger these guys to have a longer pipeline. ME will want a decision on HK before rushing Mayo or changing his position, as 3B is Gunnar's. The next bunch: Beavers, Wagner, Fabian, etc. are years away.

get out of the rebuilding mindset. its time to win, they are one of the best teams in baseball, its time to make a push. there is no magical timeline to turn the switch on, it will happen when it happens and its already happened

[Bemorewins]

3 minutes ago, Orioles0615 said:

get out of the rebuilding mindset. its time to win, they are one of the best teams in baseball, its time to make a push. there is no magical timeline to turn the switch on, it will happen when it happens and its already happened

Thank you for posting this! I baffles me that so many fans/posters are content with "as long as we have a winning record" mentality. That I believe is what Angelos wants, fans who are content with mediocrity meanwhile he keeps stuffing his pockets quietly and all is well.

No! It's time to win and really pursue excellence and chase championships!

For those who continue with these "pipeline" theories, I ask you this - What is the Astros pipeline? What about the Braves? Do you know that those 2 teams have a COMBINED ZERO top 100 prospects. Do you think that those orgs and fanbases would rather trade their situations and the recent past championships for a "pipeline"?

[Sports Guy]

Just now, Bemorewins said:

Thank you for posting this! I baffles me that so many fans/posters are content with "as long as we have a winning record" mentality. That I believe is what Angelos wants, fans who are content with mediocrity meanwhile he keeps stuffing his pockets quietly and all is well.

No! It's time to win and really pursue excellence and chase championships!

For those who continue with these "pipeline" theories, I ask you this - What is the Astros pipeline? What about the Braves? Do you know that those 2 teams have a COMBINED ZERO top 100 prospects. Do you think that those orgs and fanbases would rather trade their situations and the recent past championships for a "pipeline"?

Those teams have called up a lot of young players in the last few years. 

They always have a pipeline.

 

[Bemorewins]

12 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Those teams have called up a lot of young players in the last few years. 

They always have a pipeline.

 

Yes I agree that they DID. But I am asking where is it now? And is/should that be the MAIN priority for a team trying to win World Series trophies?

[Sports Guy]

18 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

Yes I agree that they DID. But I am asking where is it now? And is/should that be the MAIN priority for a team trying to win World Series trophies?

First of all, just because they don’t have a top 100 guy, doesn’t mean a whole lot. It doesn’t mean talent doesn’t exist. 

But you aren’t going to be an elite ranked farm system every year, especially when you have traded guys and brought up everyone.

That doesn’t mean the pipeline doesn’t exist. These teams do well in the international market. It takes time for those guys to develop.

They will have highly ranked farm systems soon enough. They will continue to bring up guys that help them.  
 

 

[Bemorewins]

4 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

First of all, just because they don’t have a top 100 guy, doesn’t mean a whole lot. It doesn’t mean talent doesn’t exist. 

But you aren’t going to be an elite ranked farm system every year, especially when you have traded guys and brought up everyone.

That doesn’t mean the pipeline doesn’t exist. These teams do well in the international market. It takes time for those guys to develop.

They will have highly ranked farm systems soon enough. They will continue to bring up guys that help them.  
 

 

You spoke first about what they have done. Now you are telling me about that will do. And I don’t dispute any of that. But my question was regarding the present. 

It’s also probably true that I put more stock into top 100 lists than you. To me, it gives me a gauge on how the game views your org talent. RIGHT NOW both of their Major League teams are awesome and have won World Series recently. They just don’t have blue chip talent in their systems at the moment. 

And to me that is absolutely ok! You can’t have it all most of the time. And if given a choice, I know which one I would pick.

[Can_of_corn]

11 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

You spoke first about what they have done. Now you are telling me about that will do. And I don’t dispute any of that. But my question was regarding the present. 

It’s also probably true that I put more stock into top 100 lists than you. To me, it gives me a gauge on how the game views your org talent. RIGHT NOW both of their Major League teams are awesome and have won World Series recently. They just don’t have blue chip talent in their systems at the moment. 

And to me that is absolutely ok! You can’t have it all most of the time. And if given a choice, I know which one I would pick.

Let's be honest here, the Braves has promoted players to the majors that Elias would still have in the minors.  The Orioles should have fewer folks on these lists.

[RZNJ]

6 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Let's be honest here, the Braves has promoted players to the majors that Elias would still have in the minors.  The Orioles should have fewer folks on these lists.

Yeah, it just hasn’t worked out the way he’s doing it.  LOL