This triple by Gunnar

[Orioles Jim]

45 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I’m sorry, but I don’t give a damn where he was drafted.  He’ll play at whatever spot gives the Orioles the best chance to win, given the other personnel on the team.  Manny was moved to 3B because Hardy was the better SS.   Cal was moved to 3B because Bordick was the better SS.   Grich was moved to 2B because Belanger was the better SS.  And those teams won more games because of it.  

The only caveat would be that if Gunnar were to establish himself to such a degree that he was an institution at SS and then they may in fact play the lesser player elsewhere (ala Jeter vs A-Rod).

While I don’t doubt that Gunnar may very well establish himself to such a degree (I agree with SG’s earlier comment that he’s got top 10 Player capabilities), I don’t think he’ll have enough time to do so prior to Holliday arriving.

To that I say, I agree, may the best man win. The best part is we get to keep both thereafter.

[RZNJ]

The comments on Holliday being signed as a SS at 1:1 and now that has to be his future position are.
 

1. Mind numbing

2. Mind blowing

3. Have me checking for joke emojis

4. Defy logic on the most basic level

[Bemorewins]

1 hour ago, The Goob said:

I agree with this.  I think Gunnar is the most likely of the two to be the SS.  But don't completely discount Ortiz actually being the long term SS.  He is the best defensively by all accounts and now has a .337/.399/.549 slash line in nearly 200 AB in AAA.  I could see Gunnar outgrowing SS and it being Gunnar at 3B, Ortiz at SS, Holiday at 2B and Westburg/Kjerstad at 1B.

Holiday said on the Adam Jones Podcast a week or so ago that he grew up as a second baseman.  I sure he was switched to SS because of draft status and rankings always favoring a SS over a 2B

In that scenario where does Mayo play? Is he traded? What informs your opinion about Kjerstad being able to play a decent 1B? By all accounts (including my own eyes) he doesn’t look good there.

Last thing, if you haven’t watched Bill Ripken’s segment on Gunnar Henderson yesterday from MLB network, I recommend that you do. He talked about how Gunnar compares favorably to the SS of the last 6 World Series winners (even was even hinted at how he compares to #8). 

When viewing things from that lens, I think it makes sense to leave Gunnar at SS rather than gambling on Ortiz being able to hit enough but still being a glove first guy at the position. 

If Gunnar were to say play SS and Holliday man 2B we would have plus value at 2 up the middle positions (all-star caliber like the Rangers). When forecasting/projecting players longterm both the offensive and defensive value has to be considered IMO.

[Sports Guy]

13 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Obviously, it is nice to have a guy capable of playing a good SS.  But that doesn’t mean the team is going to put him there if another alignment gives them a better chance to win.  

But that’s kind of my point I guess. I think they view Gunnar as a third baseman long term because of his size.

Even if Gunnar is a better SS in 2024, when Holliday is here, it doesn’t mean he will be better in 2025 and beyond.

I think they believe Holliday is an upper level SS and that gives them the best chance. That is why I believe they drafted him.

So unless they misread that and he ends up not being a good defensive SS, that’s where he will be.

Edited July 21, 2023 by Sports Guy

[eddie83]

23 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

There is just no logic here at all.   The last sentence is just silly.

It’s not silly. If you are a projected second baseman you do not have the same value. You need to have a super special bat. 

[eddie83]

53 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I’m sorry, but I don’t give a damn where he was drafted.  He’ll play at whatever spot gives the Orioles the best chance to win, given the other personnel on the team.  Manny was moved to 3B because Hardy was the better SS.   Cal was moved to 3B because Bordick was the better SS.   Grich was moved to 2B because Belanger was the better SS.  And those teams won more games because of it.  

He’s not a second baseman. He wouldn’t be the top prospect in the sport if he was a second baseman. I don’t get why this is so hard. Gunnar plays 3rd. It’s not complicated. 
 

You are bringing up a 37 year old Cal? 
Yes, Manny went to 3rd. A much more valued position than second base. 

[eddie83]

36 minutes ago, banks703 said:

This is a silly take.

The Yankees didn't sign Soriano or Cano to play 2nd base but they both turned out alright at 2nd.  

The O's drafted Jackson Holliday because of his bat. Where he ends up in the field is irrelevant. There've been PLENTY of good, high drafted SS that move positions. Jackson Holliday will be another one when he makes it to the major leagues. Bank on it. 

 

 

They signed 16 years olds from a foreign country. Has nothing to do with this. A position is not irrelevant. That is silly. If you don’t think position matters in terms of where you are drafted you don’t understand how the draft works. 
 

As much as people get on Jeter over his glove his glove wasn’t so bad that he didn’t have a ton of value at SS. 

[RZNJ]

Just now, eddie83 said:

It’s not silly. If you are a projected second baseman you do not have the same value. You need to have a super special bat. 

What’s your point?   If Henderson is the superior SS defensively between the 2, then Elias will know it. Hyde will know it.  Henderson, Holliday, and all of their teammates will know it.    It’s still a team game.    If Holliday accumulates less WAR because he’s the 2B and not the SS I don’t give a …..

 

[Aristotelian]

Just now, eddie83 said:

It’s not silly. If you are a projected second baseman you do not have the same value. You need to have a super special bat. 

I don't see how playing so-so SS (if that is the case) maximizes Holliday's value. I also don't see why it is imperative to maximize his value if doing so reduces the value of other guys. I think the "plan" is Gunnar 3B, Holliday SS, Westburg/Ortiz 2B, but the organization should also be able to pivot if there is a better solution that maximizes everyone's overall production. I'm not saying that is the case, only that I wouldn't rule it out and I doubt Elias will. I know Holliday is special but with everyone else they have played them at multiple positions to allow for plans to change. 

[RZNJ]

2 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

He’s not a second baseman. He wouldn’t be the top prospect in the sport if he was a second baseman. I don’t get why this is so hard. Gunnar plays 3rd. It’s not complicated. 
 

You are bringing up a 37 year old Cal? 
Yes, Manny went to 3rd. A much more valued position than second base. 

Eddie, you’ve had my respect as a poster up until today but I must say, I’m a little worried about you now.

[eddie83]

Just now, RZNJ said:

What’s your point?   If Henderson is the superior SS defensively between the 2, then Elias will know it. Hyde will know it.  Henderson, Holliday, and all of their teammates will know it.    It’s still a team game.    If Holliday accumulates less WAR because he’s the 2B and not the SS I don’t give a …..

 

My point is simple. Holliday is not playing on the right side of the infield. That’s my point. If you are getting a solid to capable defender at SS with his bat that is enormous value. 
 

Is it possible he plays 3rd and Gunnar SS, sure. He isn’t playing second. 

[Number5]

Are not.

Am so.

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Am so.

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Are so.

Am not.

Aha!

[RZNJ]

2 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

They signed 16 years olds from a foreign country. Has nothing to do with this. A position is not irrelevant. That is silly. If you don’t think position matters in terms of where you are drafted you don’t understand how the draft works. 
 

As much as people get on Jeter over his glove his glove wasn’t so bad that he didn’t have a ton of value at SS. 

Position is very important when drafting.   The caveat is that you are not guaranteed that position for life so as you can appear to have the most value as a minor leaguer on your road to the Hall of Fame.

[foxfield]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

But that’s kind of my point I guess. I think they view Gunnar as a third baseman long term because of his size.

Even if Gunnar is a better SS in 2024, when Holliday is here, it doesn’t mean he will be better in 2025 and beyond.

I think they believe Holliday is an upper level SS and that gives them the best chance. That is why I believe they drafted him.

So unless they misread that and he ends up not being a good defensive SS, that’s where he will be.

I really do not doubt that it could work out that way.  Teams draft tons of SS, even players that are so highly rated that go #1 overall.  The plan is to develop Holliday as a SS.  Of course.

But if fortune and fates allow that the Orioles posses two of the games best SS at the same time they will deploy them in the manner that best meshes at that time.  It is not a given at all today how that works and the Orioles are much better off because they can even have the discussion.

And, more importantly, the question will not need to be answered until later and when the time comes....it is not out of the realm of possibility that the answer for 18-24 months is different than the answer in 25-36 months.

This is a problem that well built teams face.  The answer today is irrelevant.  Having elite talent.....what we have been begging for for years, presents these questions.  I just don't think having a predetermined answer makes sense.  It could go either way....or both.

[eddie83]

Just now, RZNJ said:

Eddie, you’ve had my respect as a poster up until today but I must say, I’m a little worried about you now.

 

1 minute ago, RZNJ said:

Eddie, you’ve had my respect as a poster up until today but I must say, I’m a little worried about you now.

Why exactly? 
 

Termarr Johnson needs to have an elite bat to have similar value to a SS. He isn’t a SS. That devalued him. I don’t get why this is so hard. There is no way in the world Holliday is the top prospect in the sports if he can’t play SS in the bigs. 
 

Go find me a number 1 prospect who is a second baseman?