Should the Orioles retire Mussina’s number?

[DrungoHazewood]

35 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I think some of the stuff about “the Yankees made me feel wanted” was a little boo hoo/baby type stuff but I all think that was a direct shot at Angelos for being so cheap. He gave this team a long time of value and high level pitching. He was an outstanding postseason pitcher for us and PA basically told him he wasn’t worth much. So, I get it.

It's like fans expect the world to be a Hallmark Channel Christmas movie. Girl works at a small town flower shop, guy moves in next door. He's cute, works at the local garage fixing cars. Sure, he drinks too much and has this weird obsession with Dungeons and Dragons, but deep down he's a good guy. So when FTD Flowers offers the girl a $300k a year job at their headquarters in New York she thinks about it, but in the end she stays in Bedford Falls making $40k a year with her quirky-but-cute guy. Roll credits.

Yea, no, that's not the way the world works.

[Fan4Life]

1 minute ago, DrungoHazewood said:

It's like fans expect the world to be a Hallmark Channel Christmas movie. Girl works at a small town flower shop, guy moves in next door. He's cute, works at the local garage fixing cars. Sure, he drinks too much and has this weird obsession with Dungeons and Dragons, but deep down he's a good guy. So when FTD Flowers offers the girl a $300k a year job at their headquarters in New York she thinks about it, but in the end she stays in Bedford Falls making $40k a year with her quirky-but-cute guy. Roll credits.

Yea, no, that's not the way the world works.

It is when he leaves her for another gal 6 months later. 

[Tony-OH]

6 minutes ago, Frobby said:

If you don’t think Mussina belongs in the Hall of Fame, that’s fine.  But let’s be clear.  Mussina was worth 82.8 rWAR, 23rd all time among pitchers, and higher than most other pitchers in the Hall of Fame.  Harold Baines was worth 38.8 rWAR and there are literally hundreds of players above him on the rWAR list who are not in the Hall of Fame.  He is 370th among position players.  

As to the history of the negotiations with Mussina, I think you are misremembering the situation. Angelos made a last minute offer that essentially was about what Mussina originally asked for, but by that time the Yankees were offereing far more.  This was well documented in prior posts on this subject by both me and @TonySoprano(who I’m sure will back me up if he happens to read this).  I could dig it all up again, but I’ve done it too many times to feel like doing that.  
 

When I said he belonged with Baines it was more about the Hall of very Good rather than the WAR totals. Baines is the worse example of watering down the HoF. As much as I dislike Mu$$ina and don't think he belongs because he never really dominated over a stretch of time, he is a borderline guy for me because of his longevity of being above average.

At the end of the day, regardless, Angelos met the amount that Mu$$ina requested in his negotiations. I'm not taking any blame away from how badly Angelos screwed up the negotiations, but as I've always said, Mu$$ina choose a few extra dollars over potentially leaving a legacy behind. 

Very few players have an opportunity to leave a legacy behind and while I don't think he ever would have surpassed Palmer as the best pitcher in Orioles history due to Palmer's absolute dominance at times, 4 Cy Young awards, and multiple WS wins, he would have most likely had his number retired here and be enshrined among the greats of this organization.

He choose to be a 3rd or 4th starter and an after thought in Yankees lore.

[Tony-OH]

53 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Not to go all grammarian on you, but where Tony placed the comma in that sentence, “with the Orioles” only modifies “never won a World Series.”  But whatever, it’s all good.

 

Never go full grammarian with me. I had public school education and then the Army trained me to write in bottom line upfront manner.

Hell, even in college I only took one English composition course and that was mainly worried about citations and writing in certain styles. 

And on top of it, I suck at typing because I thought typing class was for girls in high school so I took an extra gym class.  

I taught myself how to type once computers became a thing, but I have to look at the keyboard to type fast which means I have to go back and retype crap all the time. Oh, on top of it , I have a fairly moderate case of dysgraphia. 

Add it all up, and never go full grammarian with me!

[Sports Guy]

11 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

He never won a Cy Young and was only a 20 game winner once. He never won a WS. 

His WAR is because of his longevity. He may not belong with Harold Baines, but rarely did I ever think Mu$$ina was among the best pitchers in the league. 

Outside of 1999 when he finished 2nd, he was never higher than 4th in Cy voting.

In his first five years in the league he was very good with the Orioles going 71-30 with a 3.25 ERA  (139 +ERA) in 125 starts for the Orioles.

The rest of his career he was very good (120 +ERA) but not dominant. 

Again, I'm no arguing that Mu$$ina was not a very good pitcher for a long time, I just think HoFamers should be players that were among the best if not the best for a significant amount of time. He was an All-Star five times with the Orioles, but never was selected over his last nine years of his career. 

So again, not arguing that Mu$$ina is not a good pitcher, he just does not meet the standard I think belongs in the HoF. But there are a lot of others pitchers I could say that about as well. 

The HoF has been so watered down at this point it doesn't matter. 

But anyways, no matter what, his number should never be retired by the Orioles. 

 

Lol. So much of this is laughable but also not worth my time to engage. You are so biased about him that no one can actually have a real conversation with you about him.

I get it..you hate that he left the Os for the Yankees but to allow that to cloud your actual knowledge of him and how he compares to HOF level players is over the top.

[Tony-OH]

3 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Lol. So much of this is laughable but also not worth my time to engage. You are so biased about him that no one can actually have a real conversation with you about him.

I get it..you hate that he left the Os for the Yankees but to allow that to cloud your actual knowledge of him and how he compares to HOF level players is over the top.

I've admitted multiple times I'm biased against Mu$$ina. As for being laughable, that's your typical ridiculously immature response to anything you don't agree with. So while I may be biased against Mu$$ina, at least I'm not a grown ass man who tells others they're opinions are laughable.

But you will always be you. Incapable of an adult conversation without resorting to childish statements like your still 20-years old. No one expects anything different from you at this point. I've long given up any hope of maturity from you. 

[86this]

2 hours ago, DirtyBird said:

Actually, the likelihood of not re-signing/extending Adley was the first thing I thought of. And Mike Mussina, the subject of the conversation did sign with the Yankees, so I put them together in a hypothetical. 

I believe I recall during Adley's first game against the evil empire that their announcers said he grew up a fan of the evil empire.  Could just be smoke because naturally, everyone should be.  Blechhhh.

[LookinUp]

Tom Glavine won a world series and multiple Cy Youngs. He also had a higher career WHIP, very slightly lower ERA (in a league without a DH) and less WAR than Mussina.

And Tom Glavine is a no doubt worthy hall of famer.

It is what it is, but Mussina's performance over time was awesome.

[Sports Guy]

35 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

It's like fans expect the world to be a Hallmark Channel Christmas movie. Girl works at a small town flower shop, guy moves in next door. He's cute, works at the local garage fixing cars. Sure, he drinks too much and has this weird obsession with Dungeons and Dragons, but deep down he's a good guy. So when FTD Flowers offers the girl a $300k a year job at their headquarters in New York she thinks about it, but in the end she stays in Bedford Falls making $40k a year with her quirky-but-cute guy. Roll credits.

Yea, no, that's not the way the world works.

Most understand this but for some reason, Moose is a trigger for Os fans. Quite frankly, Moose was the start of them thinking they can buy titles and they have won 1 since they signed him.

Thats the bright side. They got away from what worked for them and it still haunts them today.

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

Buster Olney checking out Orioles Hangout today:

[Morgan423]

It's Adley's number now.  That is all. 

[Frobby]

49 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Never go full grammarian with me. I had public school education and then the Army trained me to write in bottom line upfront manner.

Hell, even in college I only took one English composition course and that was mainly worried about citations and writing in certain styles. 

And on top of it, I suck at typing because I thought typing class was for girls in high school so I took an extra gym class.  

I taught myself how to type once computers became a thing, but I have to look at the keyboard to type fast which means I have to go back and retype crap all the time. Oh, on top of it , I have a fairly moderate case of dysgraphia. 

Add it all up, and never go full grammarian with me!

Believe me, I usually don’t!  But in this case  I really did think you were only talking about him not winning a WS with the O’s, not the other things. But I understand what you meant now.

As to not winning 20 games with the O’s, it’s amazing how things have changed.  The O’s had at least one 20-game winner from 1968 to 1980.  Many times they had multiple 20 game winners: 1969 (2), 1970 (3), 1971 (4), 1975 (2), 1976 (2), and 1980 (2).  But after Boddicker in 1984, no Orioles pitcher has ever won 20.  It’s partially the fact that our pitching often has been bad, but it’s also the fact that starters make fewer starts and throw fewer innings.  A 20-win season now is like a 24-25 win season back in those days.  

Mussina won 19 for us twice, and 18 twice.  In one of those years, 1995, 19 wins was the most in the league, because the season was limited to 144 games due to a strike.  Mussina also won 14 games in the 112-game strike-shortened 1994 season.  Good chance he would have won 20 in both those seasons if not for the strike that ended 1994 and then leaked into the first three weeks of 1995.   

 

Edited July 31, 2023 by Frobby

[accinfo]

All this discussion is funny since I sat with Mike Mussina’s brother (Mark) and his son (Mike’s Nephew)at the game Saturday night.  Mark’s son was wearing a Number 35 Orioles jersey with Musinna on the back of it rooting his tail off for the Baltimore Orioles.  

[Orioles1954]

I guess I've mellowed over the years, but that will be put to the test when/if Adley & Gunnar hit the market. After wanting to burn down the warehouse after Mussina, Teixeira and Guerrero (to a lesser extent), I realized that as long as the Angelos surname runs the show that I should greatly temper my expectations.

[Frobby]

1 minute ago, accinfo said:

All this discussion is funny since I sat with Mike Mussina’s brother (Mark) and his son (Mike’s Nephew)at the game Saturday night.  Mark’s son was wearing a Number 35 Orioles jersey with Musinna on the back of it rooting his tail off for the Baltimore Orioles.  

That’s pretty cool.