How many rookies in the lineup is too many to win?

[Pickles]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

This discussion is about you saying they could bring back the same exact team and they should be viewed as a 95 win team. While it’s possible, it’s not probable. You are ignoring so many important factors. 
 

If you want to move the goal posts and take the discussion in a different direction, that’s fine…but this team needs some real improvements and it’s naive to think otherwise.

Its still going to be largely the same team/players from the org but they need some real outside help too.

If they could upgrade from Gibson, and add a solid relief option, that's a solid off-season.

And I guess by "exact same team," I meant exact same organization.  The team is literally going to improve just by graduating prospects.  You were screaming that all during the season.  Yet now don't really acknowledge that.

[Sports Guy]

19 minutes ago, Pickles said:

If they could upgrade from Gibson, and add a solid relief option, that's a solid off-season.

And I guess by "exact same team," I meant exact same organization.  The team is literally going to improve just by graduating prospects.  You were screaming that all during the season.  Yet now don't really acknowledge that.

I do acknowledge it..but I would still upgrade other areas where those young players don’t exist and/or where we use the young players to get better elsewhere and need to replace them.

What I don’t think is that it’s realistic to think everyone is going to develop and be good and not bring in real improvements.

A solid reliever and an upgrade over Gibson isn’t enough…unless your idea of an upgrade is a lot more than I think you are and have hinted at.

[Pickles]

4 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I do acknowledge it..but I would still upgrade other areas where those young players don’t exist and/or where we use the young players to get better elsewhere and need to replace them.

What I don’t think is that it’s realistic to think everyone is going to develop and be good and not bring in real improvements.

A solid reliever and an upgrade over Gibson isn’t enough…unless your idea of an upgrade is a lot more than I think you are and have hinted at.

Well then what is enough?  Luis Roberts? 

And isn't enough for what?  Making the playoffs?

This team's 40 man roster as stands should be favorited to make the playoffs.  I stand by that statement.

[wildcard]

5 hours ago, Frobby said:

So, to better answer wildcard's question, I decided to look at every contending team in Orioles history and see which ones gave the most plate appearances to rookie position players.   Here are the top 5:

1.  1960.   The very first Orioles contender gave 1,797 plate appearances to rookies, including 606 to Rookie of the Year Ron Hansen (SS), 464 to ROY runner up Jim Gentile (1B), 594 to starting 2B Marv Breeding, and 113 to 20-year old reserve outfelder Dave Nicholson.  That team finished 89-65 in a 154-game schedule so about the equivalent of a 93-94 win team. in 162 games.

2.  1977.  This team won 97 games while giving 1,450 plate appearances to rookies, including 666 to Rookie of the Year Eddie Murray, 329 to infielder Rich Dauer, 246 to 2nd catcher Dave Skaggs, and 139 to reserve infielder Kiko Garcia.   The other 70 were divided among Larry Harlow, Dave Crisciulo and Mike Dimmel, who retained rookie status.  

3.  1966.  The Orioles' first World Champions won 97 games in the regular season while giving 1,089  PA to rookies, including 541 to starting 2B Davey Johnson, 458 to primary catcher Andy Etchebarren, 58 to backup C Larry Haney, 20 to reserve infielder Mark Belanger and 12 to reserve 1B Mike Epstein.

4. 2023.   The 101 game-winning AL East Champs gave 1,073 PA to rookies, including 622 PA to likely Rookie of the Year Gunnar Henderson, 228 to 2B/3B Jordan Westburg, 77 to OF Colton Cowser, 56 to reserve Terrin Vavra, 34 to infielder Joey Ortiz, 33 to OF Kyle Stowers, 33 to OF/DH Heston Kjerstad, and 23 to reserve 1B Josh Lester.

5. 1965.  This 94-win team gave 1,032 plate appearances to rookies, including 561 plate appearances to Rookie of the Year Curt Blefary, 409 to starting CF Paul Blair, and the remaining 52 were split between Davey Johnson, Andy Etchebarren and Mark Belanger, who retained their rookie status.

I didn't look to see if any of the bad Orioles teams topped these figures, since that wasn't relevant to the question posed by wildcard.

Other teams of note: the 1973 AL East winners featuring Al Bumbry and Rich Coggins (936 PA to rookies), 1982 AL East runner-up team featuring ROY Cal Ripken (922), the 2022 Adley-led Orioles (866), and the 1989 "Why Not" O's featuring rookies such as Craig Worthington, Steve Finley and Chris Hoiles (832).  

The least PA given to rookies by an Orioles contender goes to the 1997 team, which gave out 32 PA to Dave Dellucci, 3 to Melvin Rosario, 3 to Danny Clyburn and 3 to Charlie Greene, for a total of 40.   

 

So basically in  2023 Gunnar was put on the 26 man roster and left there to go through his adjustment period.   He completed that period before Westburg was called up to go through his adjustment period. 

Kjerstad was called up on Sept 14th and played in 13 of 17 games until the end of the season for 30 AB.

The others Vavra, Cowser, Ortiz, Stowers, and Lester  were called up to replace injured players and sent back when the injured player returned or was in a reserve role and played sparingly.

 

Edited November 7, 2023 by wildcard

[Yossarian]

The answer is 10

[LookinUp]

What's crazy about this is Holliday and Mayo could have impacts at or slightly below Adley and Gunnar. I think it takes them both a while to get there, but 2025 should be a blast.

[BRobinsonfan]

27

[NCRaven]

On 11/7/2023 at 1:35 AM, Yossarian said:

The answer is 10

Is that a five yard penalty and repeat the down for having more than 9 players on the field?

[Frobby]

https://www.masnsports.com/blog/can-a-first-division-team-carry-a-struggling-rookie-on-the-roster

[forphase1]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

https://www.masnsports.com/blog/can-a-first-division-team-carry-a-struggling-rookie-on-the-roster

We've carried enough struggling vets over the years (Mateo, Odor, etc) that carrying a struggling rookie shouldn't be much different.    

[24fps]

13 minutes ago, forphase1 said:

We've carried enough struggling vets over the years (Mateo, Odor, etc) that carrying a struggling rookie shouldn't be much different.    

Completely agree.  Now Hyde just needs have a quicker hook when it come to those struggling vets.  Barring trades, maybe the even larger logjam next season will finally increase the tempo some.

[AnythingO's]

The only struggling vets that should be on this team in 2024 should be Hays and Mullins (when injured), Mounty (when dizzy). I can live with Santa and McCann ups and downs. Frazier, Hicks gone, O'Hearn and one of Urias/Mateo traded. Santa more at 1B-DH for Kjerstad in RF.