Cease vs everyone else

[Bemorewins]

3 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

LA doesn’t have the top flight prospects we have.

 

True they don't have a Holliday, Cowser or Kjerstad for that matter. But they have a lot of depth and young players at the big league level (including pitchers) that they can trade. The Braves in comparison have very little in terms of attractive trade commodities. 

[Bemorewins]

3 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

It could be true.  Maybe the Dodgers have more depth.  I feel pretty strongly that Holliday, Mayo, and Basallo are all better than the Dodgers #1 prospect.

You will get no argument from me there. The issue is not the number of high end assets that we have, but more the willingness of ownership to add salaries and the front office to trade away young talent given the former. It appears that the prospect stock pile is all we likely have to continue to improve the team. I know some posters have set the bar so low that resigning a Kyle Gibson was a win for them. But the problem with those type of players is that they are not good enough to impact winning when you get into the post season. Not saying we have to go with a Cease or bust approach. But at some point soon (while we still have Adley and Gunnar) we are going to have to do something in the way of a meaningful move that increases our chances against the best teams in October. The Gibsons, Fujinamas, Aaron Hicks, and Ryan O'Hearns of the world aren't enough.

[interloper]

13 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

The Dodgers have an excellent system on-par with or maybe even a little better than the O's. The Braves do not. Their system is no where close to the other 2. But as we saw with the Verlander deadline deal even a team with an inferior system can beat you to the punch if you are unwilling to pull the trigger.

Totally agree here.

[Sports Guy]

The Dodgers become a real threat if the Os aren’t willing to give up any of their top 5 guys.

LA may become more viable to the White Sox if Ortiz is the highest rated guy we put on the table.

The Braves aren’t much of a threat to the Os unless the WS really overrate Grissom.

We never know how a team views another player, so they could just be in love with a guy that makes every one else scratch their heads. 

[Pickles]

22 minutes ago, HakunaSakata said:

Huh? They're basically the Spider-men pointing at each other meme if you project out Grissom's numbes over Westburg's ABs. 

Wesburg - .260 / 3 HRs / 23 RBI / .311 OBP (in 208 ABs)

Grissom - .280 / 0 HRs / 9 RBI / .313 OBP (in 75 ABs)

That's some clever accounting there.

Grissom had an OPS+ of 78.  Westburg at 100.

There was a significant difference between their major league performances.

[HakunaSakata]

2 hours ago, Pickles said:

That's some clever accounting there.

Grissom had an OPS+ of 78.  Westburg at 100.

There was a significant difference between their major league performances.

You made a Pete Rose comparision. Rose's biggested attribute was his ability to hit for average. Grissom hit for a higher average than Westburg last season so technically Grissom was closer to a Pete Rose player profile than Westburg, no? And to add to that Grissom hit .330 at AAA last season versus Westburg's .295. To say that the two aren't at least somewhat comparable prospects from at least a hitting perspective seems pretty ridiculous.

[Can_of_corn]

9 minutes ago, HakunaSakata said:

You made a Pete Rose comparision. Rose's biggested attribute was his ability to hit for average. Grissom hit for a higher average than Westburg last season so technically Grissom was closer to a Pete Rose player profile than Westburg, no? And to add to that Grissom hit .330 at AAA last season versus Westburg's .295. To say that the two aren't at least somewhat comparable prospects from at least a hitting perspective seems pretty ridiculous.

I thought Rose's biggest attribute was his ability to project his image as a grinder every man type character.

Dude's career average is 303.

[HakunaSakata]

6 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I thought Rose's biggest attribute was his ability to project his image as a grinder every man type character.

Dude's career average is 303.

Unfortunately there isn't a MLB stat for hustle so I went with the offensive category in which he was the least mediocre. 

[Safelykept]

4 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

I’m not saying I disagree with you or that you are wrong…but I’m also not going to let Ortiz be the reason this deal falls through.

Any individual feelings aside for how good you think Cease is, it’s unquestioned that he’s an upgrade and a potential difference maker.

Ortiz is good and I’d be happy if he started for us but he’s also a luxury and one we can afford to lose.

I feel the same way about Cowser except I feel stronger about it than I do Ortiz.

Where you and I differ is that you don’t want to sacrifice for the now. I place a larger importance on winning right now and I believe they will keep a system in place that allows them to replace what they trade. I don’t believe they have a system in place to give them what Cease can, at least not right now.

Well said, Cease is the pitcher  out there that makes the most sense Hes cost control able over the next 2 years (So that fits with JA cheapness) Hes an upgrade over Lyles and Gibson with possible ACE upside. They would not have to give up any their top 3 prospects, and if Cease pitches any where near his career norm over the next 2 years they could QO him and some of that Draft capitol comes back. They need to get this done. 

[Sports Guy]

4 hours ago, Pickles said:

That's some clever accounting there.

Grissom had an OPS+ of 78.  Westburg at 100.

There was a significant difference between their major league performances.

Plus Westburg established himself as a very good defender at a key IF position and he can play third decently as well.

The only thing Grissom has on him is age but if you aren’t that good, it doesn’t matter how old you are.

Put another way, the Braves lost Swanson and were ready to go to Grissom last year and he couldn’t beat out 28 y/o Orlando Arcia, who had a 2.2 career WAR in parts of 7 ML seasons prior to last year.

Westburg established himself as, at the very least, a lower division starting second baseman..which is far more than Grissom has shown thus far.

I would say it’s true that entering 2023, they were on par with each other. That’s no longer true.

[RZNJ]

26 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Plus Westburg established himself as a very good defender at a key IF position and he can play third decently as well.

The only thing Grissom has on him is age but if you aren’t that good, it doesn’t matter how old you are.

Put another way, the Braves lost Swanson and were ready to go to Grissom last year and he couldn’t beat out 28 y/o Orlando Arcia, who had a 2.2 career WAR in parts of 7 ML seasons prior to last year.

Westburg established himself as, at the very least, a lower division starting second baseman..which is far more than Grissom has shown thus far.

I would say it’s true that entering 2023, they were on par with each other. That’s no longer true.

It’s funny how we twist things to suit our arguments.  I’m sure I’ve seen you argue how age is very important when talking about young players and prospects.   Also, no one has mentioned that Grissom put up a .795 OPS in more ABs in 2022.  He’s probably not a SS and he’s not about to take Ozzie Albies job.   The counter point to Grissom not beating out Arcia is that the Orioles felt the need to sign Adam Frazier instead of giving the job to Westburg.

All of this is to say, that one can make a reasonable case that Westburg and Grissom are comparable.

[HakunaSakata]

49 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Plus Westburg established himself as a very good defender at a key IF position and he can play third decently as well.

The only thing Grissom has on him is age but if you aren’t that good, it doesn’t matter how old you are.

Put another way, the Braves lost Swanson and were ready to go to Grissom last year and he couldn’t beat out 28 y/o Orlando Arcia, who had a 2.2 career WAR in parts of 7 ML seasons prior to last year.

Westburg established himself as, at the very least, a lower division starting second baseman..which is far more than Grissom has shown thus far.

I would say it’s true that entering 2023, they were on par with each other. That’s no longer true.

I specifically said from a hitting perspective. What Grissom did at AAA (with his bat) isn't going to be forgotten because of 75 mehish MLB ABs. And Grissom's poor defense was the reason why the Braves opened the season with Arcia, not his bat. Yes Westburg (right now) is the better defender, but Grissom is two years young which somewhat closes that gap. I also think he's a better pure hitter and has more speed than Westburg. I guarantee you in a Braves Forum they'd be having the opposite argument. 

[Sports Guy]

11 minutes ago, HakunaSakata said:

I specifically said from a hitting perspective. What Grissom did at AAA (with his bat) isn't going to be forgotten because of 75 mehish MLB ABs. And Grissom's poor defense was the reason why the Braves opened the season with Arcia, not his bat. Yes Westburg (right now) is the better defender, but Grissom is two years young which somewhat closes that gap. I also think he's a better pure hitter and has more speed than Westburg. I guarantee you in a Braves Forum they'd be having the opposite argument. 

Maybe…I also saw the twitter thread where this trade was being discussed and saw Braves fans say he’s not good.

The age is the key for Grissom but I have read scouting reports questioning his power and how that will allow his offense to translate to the majors.

Plus if he’s an OFer, will he hit enough for that?  

If he was a definitive IFer, even if he’s not a SS, that would be different but a questionable power, OF bat isn’t really highly desirable.

So, I guess it depends on how you feel about the power and age and how he can develop. 
 

Honestly, I don’t have much of an opinion on him other than what briefly read and what he failed to capitalize on in Atlanta this year. 
 

But Westburg did show he can be a ML starter at a key position and I think that would carry more weight…but again, the key (and I agree with you here) is the age difference but the age difference only matters if you think the player is good and/or has a lot more room for development.

[HakunaSakata]

7 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

But Westburg did show he can be a ML starter at a key position and I think that would carry more weight…but again, the key (and I agree with you here) is the age difference but the age difference only matters if you think the player is good and/or has a lot more room for development.

...and Grissom showed that he could be a MLB starter in 2022. I'm not arguing over who's better, because that's highly subjective, but they are most certainly comparable players. And it's not a stretch to think that most MLB teams would feel the same. 

[Frobby]

2 hours ago, HakunaSakata said:

Unfortunately there isn't a MLB stat for hustle so I went with the offensive category in which he was the least mediocre. 

I disliked Pete Rose, but at 79.6 rWAR, I wouldn’t go so far as to say he was mediocre.  He really did hurt his rate stats by playing about 5 years too long chasing the hits record.