Moving forward, what are your expectations for payroll in comparison to the rest of the league?

[Bemorewins]

27 minutes ago, btdart20 said:

That rules them out...  2015 KC?

Was KC as low as we are now in payroll? 

[Frobby]

4 hours ago, Bemorewins said:

Was KC as low as we are now in payroll? 

No.  In 2014, when the went to the WS, they were at $90 mm, but in 2015 when they won, they were at $121 mm.  They ran payrolls of $125 and $128 mm the two years after than, then dropped back below $100 mm.  

[AnythingO's]

I don't think this will change anyone's mind but the Forbes data is all we really have to go on. The 2023 Revenue, Payroll, and Operating Income data are not out yet. What this tell me is that if you combine Payroll and Operating Income (profit) you arrive at about $150 M as the break even point, meaning zero profit. These umbers don't account for the MASN profit but that should be low due to increased rights fees. With increased Revenue from 2021 to 2022 the Payroll increased but the overall breakeven point remained largely the same.

Year	Revenue	Salaries	Payroll (incl Expenses)	Revenue - Payrl/Exps	Operating Income	Operating Cost
2014	245	110	122	123	31.4	91.6
2015	239	118.9	137	102	8.8	93.2
2016	253	147.7	162	91	-2.1	93.1
2017	252	164.3	183	69	-26	95
2018	251	143	161	90	-6.5	96.5
2019	256	61.1	103	153	57	96
2020	115	23.9	43	72	-23	95
2021	251	45.7	66	185	83	102
2022	264	44.88	83	181	67	114
2023		71.06

[Birdland in NC]

Related to this, I think new ownership will make the team more profitable in the near future. Hopefully much better attendance too, and Elias should have some more money in the budget.  League average payroll is reasonable.  

[Frobby]

5 hours ago, AnythingO's said:

I don't think this will change anyone's mind but the Forbes data is all we really have to go on. The 2023 Revenue, Payroll, and Operating Income data are not out yet. What this tell me is that if you combine Payroll and Operating Income (profit) you arrive at about $150 M as the break even point, meaning zero profit. These umbers don't account for the MASN profit but that should be low due to increased rights fees. With increased Revenue from 2021 to 2022 the Payroll increased but the overall breakeven point remained largely the same.

Year	Revenue	Salaries	Payroll (incl Expenses)	Revenue - Payrl/Exps	Operating Income	Operating Cost
2014	245	110	122	123	31.4	91.6
2015	239	118.9	137	102	8.8	93.2
2016	253	147.7	162	91	-2.1	93.1
2017	252	164.3	183	69	-26	95
2018	251	143	161	90	-6.5	96.5
2019	256	61.1	103	153	57	96
2020	115	23.9	43	72	-23	95
2021	251	45.7	66	185	83	102
2022	264	44.88	83	181	67	114
2023		71.06

I agree these numbers are the best we have.   I expect 2023 revenue was up considerably, with the 550 k increase in attendance as well as some playoff revenue.   

Forbes’ payroll numbers are usually higher than what you see elsewhere, because they include health care and other benefits not included in the pure salary numbers.  For example, they report 2017 payroll at $183 mm whereas BB-ref has it at $161 mm.  So a “$150 mm payroll” for Forbes is probably more like $130 mm in total salaries.  
 

[RZNJ]

The guy on Locked On Orioles said the two lowest payrolls of recent times (maybe all time) based on rank were the 2014 Royals (18th in payroll) and the Astros in 2017 (17th in payroll).  Everyone has been 10th or higher in payroll.  I believe the Orioles are currently 27th in payroll.   There’s a first time for everything.

[interloper]

Can we please wait until a sale is official? Angelos is more than capable of scuttling/reneging on this thing. More than capable. Especially with Manfred threatening to get involved with MASN.

We are FAR from out of the woods.

[joelala]

6 minutes ago, interloper said:

Can we please wait until a sale is official? Angelos is more than capable of scuttling/reneging on this thing. More than capable. Especially with Manfred threatening to get involved with MASN.

We are FAR from out of the woods.

I feel like there would be pretty huge legal implications if he were to do that. Not sure how billion dollar sales work, but I imagine there were hundreds of pages of contracts that have been signed. 
 

Or I hope at least . 
 

But I do share some of your reticence that things may not get better. “The devil you know… etc”

[Frobby]

7 minutes ago, interloper said:

Can we please wait until a sale is official? Angelos is more than capable of scuttling/reneging on this thing. More than capable. Especially with Manfred threatening to get involved with MASN.

We are FAR from out of the woods.

I didn’t read Manfred’s remarks as threatening to get involved.   That’s some Washington sports reporter’s wet dream.   

What is true is that Rubenstein is a successful, creative businessman who will probably look for a way to restructure the TV rights thing in a way that’s more productive for both teams than the current arrangement.  Which shouldn’t be too hard.  
 

[Bemorewins]

10 hours ago, Frobby said:

No.  In 2014, when the went to the WS, they were at $90 mm, but in 2015 when they won, they were at $121 mm.  They ran payrolls of $125 and $128 mm the two years after than, then dropped back below $100 mm.  

I was talking about where they were ranked payroll wise. Because the 90 million in 2015 was of course different in value and could buy more presumably then the 90+ million we are spending a decade later.

[Frobby]

8 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

I was talking about where they were ranked payroll wise. Because the 90 million in 2015 was of course different in value and could buy more presumably then the 90+ million we are spending a decade later.

Is there a reason you can’t look this stuff up yourself, if you’re that interested?

2014 payroll list

2015 payroll list

 

[AnythingO's]

7 hours ago, Frobby said:

I agree these numbers are the best we have.   I expect 2023 revenue was up considerably, with the 550 k increase in attendance as well as some playoff revenue.   

Forbes’ payroll numbers are usually higher than what you see elsewhere, because they include health care and other benefits not included in the pure salary numbers.  For example, they report 2017 payroll at $183 mm whereas BB-ref has it at $161 mm.  So a “$150 mm payroll” for Forbes is probably more like $130 mm in total salaries.  
 

You are correct and the delta between the "Salaries" column and the "Payroll" column reflect that. Most years it is about $20M but in 2019 and 2022 there were deltas of $42M and $38M respectively that have no explanation. I speculated the 2019 was a result of restructuring the Davis contract and needing to put money into an escrow account but have no idea what the 2022 increase was about.