Jackson Holliday 2024

[sportsfan8703]

4 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Sometime in his career?   Yeah, I agree.  

Oh, you meant 2024?  I won’t say it’s impossible but I’d put the odds at more like 20%.   
 

I’d be ok with after the break Elias said lift off… called up Holliday and Mayo… then traded Urias and optioned Cowser till September. 

[Frobby]

3 minutes ago, sportsfan8703 said:

I’d be ok with after the break Elias said lift off… called up Holliday and Mayo… then traded Urias and optioned Cowser till September. 

I don’t think that teams playing .632 baseball need to say “liftoff.”  They’re already in ratified air.  

[EdwinRip]

6 minutes ago, sportsfan8703 said:

I’d be ok with after the break Elias said lift off… called up Holliday and Mayo… then traded Urias and optioned Cowser till September. 

Why would you option Cowser?  His defense has been great.  He has a 112wRC+ and has been hitting better recently. He’s been hitting the ball hard all year. He has 2.2fwar for the year and would probably be 3rd in rookie of the year voting right now.

[sportsfan8703]

4 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I don’t think that teams playing .632 baseball need to say “liftoff.”  They’re already in ratified air.  

99/100 seasons I would agree with you but the goal isn’t just to play .632 baseball, it’s to win a WS. The young boys have too much of a ceiling.
 

Mateo can still get ABs in a utility role. Cowser is the odd man out until rosters expand in September. 

[sportsfan8703]

2 minutes ago, EdwinRip said:

Why would you option Cowser?  His defense has been great.  He has a 112wRC+ and has been hitting better recently. He’s been hitting the ball hard all year. He has 2.2fwar for the year and would probably be 3rd in rookie of the year voting right now.

 

[Hank Scorpio]

5 minutes ago, sportsfan8703 said:

 

Leading the entire team in barrel %.... he'll come around.

[sportsfan8703]

1 minute ago, Hank Scorpio said:

Leading the entire team in barrel %.... he'll come around.

I root for him too, but take away those first three weeks and it’s really ugly. The league adjusted. 

[Big Mac]

2 minutes ago, Hank Scorpio said:

Leading the entire team in barrel %.... he'll come around.

Also has managed a .748 OPS over the last 28 days so it's not like he's lost up there or anything.  I think there is zero chance they option him unless his production really nosedives. 

[sportsfan8703]

4 minutes ago, Big Mac said:

Also has managed a .748 OPS over the last 28 days so it's not like he's lost up there or anything.  I think there is zero chance they option him unless his production really nosedives. 

I’d take Holliday, and Mayo, to out OPS Cowser the rest of the season. 

Again, I root for Cowser, but if we could sell high on him for a starter with control, then I’d listen. 

If we don’t go the rental route for SP, the Cowser, Stowers, and Norby, is a pretty good first offer. Maybe that’s in the ballpark of everyone’s favorite Crochet. Maybe include DeLeon, McDermott, or Baumeister. 

Edited Friday at 18:18 by sportsfan8703

[emmett16]

33 minutes ago, sportsfan8703 said:

99/100 seasons I would agree with you but the goal isn’t just to play .632 baseball, it’s to win a WS. The young boys have too much of a ceiling.
 

Mateo can still get ABs in a utility role. Cowser is the odd man out until rosters expand in September. 

Terrible take.  You don’t drop a guy who has the 4th best OAA in MLB & Carrie’s a 116OPS+ & who has been hitting into bad luck all season.  He isn’t going to get demoted.  His statcast #s are very good and point to a huge second half.  There are other ways to bring up the guys from AAA.    

[Bemorewins]

42 minutes ago, sportsfan8703 said:

I’d take Holliday, and Mayo, to out OPS Cowser the rest of the season. 

Again, I root for Cowser, but if we could sell high on him for a starter with control, then I’d listen. 

If we don’t go the rental route for SP, the Cowser, Stowers, and Norby, is a pretty good first offer. Maybe that’s in the ballpark of everyone’s favorite Crochet. Maybe include DeLeon, McDermott, or Baumeister. 

If I had to choose a "favorite" it would DEFINITELY be Skubal over Crochet.

Two quick questions (as it appears you are willing to be everything on the ceilings of the guys currently at AAA.

1) Given everything that you have seen from Elias (and his tendency toward being conservative) what are the chances do you think  that Elias does what you suggest and bets it all on the ceiling of Holliday and Mayo down the stretch?

2) If that gamble doesn't pay off what would be the recourse/plan B (if one or both were to struggle like say Holliday did earlier in the season in his short stint)?

[sportsfan8703]

45 minutes ago, emmett16 said:

Terrible take.  You don’t drop a guy who has the 4th best OAA in MLB & Carrie’s a 116OPS+ & who has been hitting into bad luck all season.  He isn’t going to get demoted.  His statcast #s are very good and point to a huge second half.  There are other ways to bring up the guys from AAA.    

It’s just a different take not a terrible one. What does being 3rd favorite to win ROY get you?  Kjerstad has passed Cowser for me. I still love Cowser. He’s an O.

Be honest… how much does the milkman and cow nipple gimmick come into play here?

[Three Run Homer]

2 hours ago, Frobby said:

I just want to riff on the term “elite athlete.”   To me, different people have different ideas of what level of quality is “elite,” and what it means to be an “athlete.”    For some people, “elite” means top 10% of the whole populace, for others it means top 0.1% of people who play professional sports.   Some people consider you “athletic” if you are very well coordinated and have good ability to learn skills, others don’t consider you “athletic” unless you could hold your own in the Olympic decathlon.   So a lot of times, people arguing about whether someone is an “elite athlete” are really talking past each other because they don’t ageee on what the term means.  

To me, most pro sports players are elite athletes, and it’s just a matter of how elite they are.   In the case of Holliday, he’s athletic enough to be an awesome baseball player, and that’s elite enough for me.
 

 

I think when people say "elite athlete" about a baseball player, they mean that someone has the proverbial five tools--hit for average, hit for power, run, throw, field.   Someone like (say) Ronald Acuna Jr. or Gunnar Henderson.   

Obviously there are great baseball players who never had all five tools (Frank Thomas) and players who were elite athletes who could have been better had they mastered other skills such as plate discipline (Adam Jones).   The "five tools" framework means that most catching prospects, including Basallo, will never be considered to be elite athletes, because they lack top-grade speed.   And it's rare that you would hear a pitcher described as an "elite athlete".  

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, Three Run Homer said:

I think when people say "elite athlete" about a baseball player, they mean that someone has the proverbial five tools--hit for average, hit for power, run, throw, field.   Someone like (say) Ronald Acuna Jr. or Gunnar Henderson.   

Obviously there are great baseball players who never had all five tools (Frank Thomas) and players who were elite athletes who could have been better had they mastered other skills such as plate discipline (Adam Jones).   The "five tools" framework means that most catching prospects, including Basallo, will never be considered to be elite athletes, because they lack top-grade speed.   And it's rare that you would hear a pitcher described as an "elite athlete".  

I'm going to disagree because I don't think hit for average is considered an "elite athlete" tool. 

Elly De La Cruz is an elite athlete, so was Bubba Starling.  Mateo is an Elite athlete.

You can be an elite athlete and still not be a good ML player.

 

[interloper]

3 hours ago, Frobby said:

I think probably what’s bothering people the most is that Holliday was hitting unbelievably well as of his call-up (.333/.462/.595), and he hasn’t been at that level of domination since being sent down (.259/.437/.445).  Plus, his K rate was 14.3% before the call-up, 24.2% since.   Bottom line, his meteoric ascent last year and his fast start this year set crazy-high expectations that he’s not quite meeting.   Personally, I’m not worried at all, but I’d like to see his post-return BA back in the .300ish range before I’d be clamoring for another call-up.   

Yes exactly. He's been worse since the demotion and I think it's fair to want him to return to form before he's called up again.