Gunnar Henderson 2024

[Hallas]

18 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Good pull but that was 40 years ago.

Last 25 we have Judge and Arod who had a pair of 9 win seasons.  I don't think a big market bias is there for awards anymore.

Oh I know, I also wanted to mention, but forgot, that the 80s yankees weren't exactly evil empire status.  They were pretty up-and-down for most of the 80s, and their payroll wasn't what it is now.

[Philip]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

Do you have evidence showing the Yankees win MVPs they don't deserve over say the last 25 years?

The Judge MVP was very defendable.

I’m talking about this year. There was nothing in my comment to indicate anything else. You make some really loopy inferences at times.

The “Not a Yankee” bit was just a dig at the Yankees, which isn’t unreasonable for an Orioles board, and should have been apparent.

[Say O!]

3 minutes ago, Hallas said:

Oh I know, I also wanted to mention, but forgot, that the 80s yankees weren't exactly evil empire status.  They were pretty up-and-down for most of the 80s, and their payroll wasn't what it is now.

Ehhh, that was bc Steinbrenner ineptitude.  I’ve heard it argued that NYY became evil empire when got Reggie as FA in 1977 and cemented in 1981 when bought Winfield in FA (although Steinbrenner later called him “Mr May”).  Both those contracts are richest in FA history at the time. 

[Philip]

44 minutes ago, Hallas said:

They're surprisingly close offensively.  Judge gets a decently large boost to his counting stats by playing in the short porches of Yankee Stadium.  1/2/3 in offensive runs are Judge, Shohei, and Gunnar.  Gunnar overtakes them because of his defense and positional adjustment, which is significant (around 1 win between Gunnar and Judge, around 1.5 wins between Gunnar and Shohei) but all three of them are hitting so much that it's not a huge percentage of their overall contributions.

Yes that’s what I was asking. COC was completely off base in his comment.

Judge is a great player, and apparently a nice guy. I have nothing against him, or most Yankees, for that matter, though Gil’s tats are off putting. I am expecting a bit of pro Yankee bias, but that’s ok. Also, home runs is a very glittery stat, and might sway some folks. But it should be Gunnar, at least based on the first 81.

[dystopia]

7 hours ago, Philip said:

I’m talking about this year. There was nothing in my comment to indicate anything else. You make some really loopy inferences at times.

The “Not a Yankee” bit was just a dig at the Yankees, which isn’t unreasonable for an Orioles board, and should have been apparent.

He gets mad every time someone takes a dig at the Yankees. Sometimes I feel like he’d be more at home at Pinstripe Alley than here. 

[Can_of_corn]

5 minutes ago, dystopia said:

He gets mad every time someone takes a dig at the Yankees. Sometimes I feel like he’d be more at home at Pinstripe Alley than here. 

I comment back when folks act like the Yankees will sign every free agent or that voters will give a Yankee preferential treatment.  I did mis-read Philip's comment. 

This ain't the 50's, this ain't the 90's.  Folks here give the Yankees too much credit.

Edited Saturday at 11:24 by Can_of_corn

[DrungoHazewood]

9 hours ago, Hallas said:

I think he was implying that giving it to a non-Yankee was preferable just because we like sticking it to the big evil empire.

 

But to answer your question, the last MVP that went to an undeserving Yankee was Mattingly in 1985, who won it over George Brett, Rickey Henderson, and Wade Boggs.  Even without looking at traditional stats Mattingly was clearly inferior to those guys; the only stat he had over them was RBI.  Henderson was a Yankee at the time so clearly it wasn't entirely Yankee bias that gave the award to Mattingly, more just a case of a misunderstanding of what makes a player valuable.  Just by looking at traditional stats I would have expected Boggs to take that one.

If you were going to run a comprehensive study you'd have to run a correlation between MVP votes and (value metric of your choice) across all teams, then see if the Yanks were different than the average. But even that might be of limited usefulness, because I'd guess the WAR leader has won the MVP less than half the time, perhaps substantially less. It's only been the last 15-20 years that we've had decent, reasonable, consistent ways of combining and comparing different types of production on a common baseline. So even as recently as 2005 MVP voters were left to their own guessing and biases to figure out if a run saved by a pitcher was more or less valuable than a run created by a hitter, or a baserunner or even how (or if) to include fielding.

In other words, even if a Yankee beat a more-qualified player in the voting what does that mean in a world where Juan Gonzalez and his three wins out-polls ARod and his nine? How do you pick out the Yankee bias from the "we just don't have/use an objective way to measure value" bias?

[DrungoHazewood]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

I comment back when folks act like the Yankees will sign every free agent or that voters will give a Yankee preferential treatment.  I did mis-read Philip's comment. 

This ain't the 50's, this ain't the 90's.  Folks here give the Yankees too much credit.

If you wanted to you could probably write us a white paper on how any number of borderline HOF candidates have not been inducted because the writers are sick of all the Yankees. Like Munson, Nettles, Randolph, Guidry, Bernie Williams, Posada, Mattingly, Pettitte, Schang. Every few years a Baines, Oliva, Hodges, Rice, Cepeda gets in, but not those guys.

I'm not going to do that, but feel free...

[DrungoHazewood]

9 hours ago, Say O! said:

Ehhh, that was bc Steinbrenner ineptitude.  I’ve heard it argued that NYY became evil empire when got Reggie as FA in 1977 and cemented in 1981 when bought Winfield in FA (although Steinbrenner later called him “Mr May”).  Both those contracts are richest in FA history at the time. 

I'd argue that they became the evil empire circa 1920, when they were drawing 40% more attendance than anyone else in the league, game-day related revenues were almost all revenues at the time, and so they started to have resources and payroll substantially higher than any other team.

In 1920 the Yanks drew 1.3M fans, the A's 0.3M. The A's didn't have a chance until Connie Mack pulled a Mike Elias and assembled arguably the greatest collection of relatively cheap, young talent the game had ever seen.

[Say O!]

2 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

I'd argue that they became the evil empire circa 1920, when they were drawing 40% more attendance than anyone else in the league, game-day related revenues were almost all revenues at the time, and so they started to have resources and payroll substantially higher than any other team.

In 1920 the Yanks drew 1.3M fans, the A's 0.3M. The A's didn't have a chance until Connie Mack pulled a Mike Elias and assembled arguably the greatest collection of relatively cheap, young talent the game had ever seen.

That was empire status for sure (and really they’ve always been the dominant team), but they didn’t become “evil” until Steinbrenner IMO. 

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

 

[OnlyOneOriole]

Bought 200 of these at $5 a piece 2 years ago when he was first called up.

 

 

[Can_of_corn]

2 hours ago, OnlyOneOriole said:

Bought 200 of these at $5 a piece 2 years ago when he was first called up.

 

 

I got my cards in my spokes, I'm practicing my jokes.

 

[accinfo]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

I got my cards in my spokes, I'm practicing my jokes.

 

Oh the money I put in my spokes in the 1970’s.  

[SteveA]

4 hours ago, OsFanSinceThe80s said:

 

Here are the last 12 guys to play 250+ games with a .850 OPS or more before their 23rd birthday:

• Ken Griffey Jr
• Alex Rodriguez
• Albert Pujols
• Miguel Cabrera
• Giancarlo Stanton
• Mike Trout
• Bryce Harper
• Ronald Acuna Jr
• Vladimir Guerrero Jr
• Fernando Tatis Jr
• Juan Soto
• Gunnar Henderson