Speculating on how the O's handle the pitching logjam

[Explosivo]

17 minutes ago, Jagwar said:

I'll admit, it looked like he was off and his body language was awful. But every single coach has access to every warmup pitch he throws, and I find it hard to believe that he could fool all of them before stepping on that mound. 

My guess (uneducated and uninformed as it may be) is that he tweaked something on one of his first pitches, and thought he could work his way through it. Hyde and Ebel came out, and in the end it is THEIR decision to keep him on the mound or not. Until we have proof that Kimbrel was nefariously hiding an injury, it's all speculation. 

When he goes on the IL this week, we will know for sure. Look, the guy has earned his stripes and guys like that get greater leeway. You think he didn’t say “I’m good?” You think the fact that he didn’t throw anything but fastballs wasn’t a giveaway? And what was that shit on the top of his cap? Like I said, Kimbrel is in the doghouse. It’s going to take a lot for him to climb out. Closer by committee until Suarez assumes the role, cano as setup guy, dfa ramirez when Bradish gets called up and pray that Perez comes back to form or Charles can make a cano-like jump in command. July we will bolster the bullpen via trade and hopefully by then kimbrel will actually be healthy.

[Jagwar]

Just now, Explosivo said:

When he goes on the IL this week, we will know for sure. Look, the guy has earned his stripes and guys like that get greater leeway. You think he didn’t say “I’m good?” You think the fact that he didn’t throw anything but fastballs wasn’t a giveaway? And what was that shit on the top of his cap? Like I said, Kimbrel is in the doghouse. It’s going to take a lot for him to climb out. Closer by committee until Suarez assumes the role, cano as setup guy, dfa ramirez when Bradish gets called up and pray that Perez comes back to form or Charles can make a cano-like jump in command. July we will bolster the bullpen via trade and hopefully by then kimbrel will actually be healthy.

I can't argue with any of your ideas. My only beef is accusing Kimbrel of inappropriately hiding an injury without any actual knowledge or proof that he was doing so. Is it possible? Yes. Is it factual? To be determined. 

[Explosivo]

4 minutes ago, Jagwar said:

I can't argue with any of your ideas. My only beef is accusing Kimbrel of inappropriately hiding an injury without any actual knowledge or proof that he was doing so. Is it possible? Yes. Is it factual? To be determined. 

And my thing is, it was obvious. Too many data points to indicate anything other than that’s what happened. You think Hyde is cool with losing a game because a pro put himself above his teammates? I don’t think so. Hyde is going to be pissed for sure. It’s disappointing and I get Kimbrel is a competitor but in this instance, it was a selfish move and I would think would affect trust between player and coach. When Palmer can see it, and he knows pitching, you listen.

[Jagwar]

1 minute ago, Explosivo said:

And my thing is, it was obvious. Too many data points to indicate anything other than that’s what happened. You think Hyde is cool with losing a game because a pro put himself above his teammates? I don’t think so. Hyde is going to be pissed for sure. It’s disappointing and I get Kimbrel is a competitor but in this instance, it was a selfish move and I would think would affect trust between player and coach. When Palmer can see it, and he knows pitching, you listen.

And you just provided evidence for what I was saying. Do you know for a fact that Kimbrel put himself above his teammates?  Hyde (and Ebel) was much closer to the field than Palmer. He had every opportunity to pull Kimbrel. And he decided to leave him in. 

In the end, you very well could be correct in your speculation. But let's get some actual sources and facts first before making a blanket accusation. 

[Explosivo]

13 minutes ago, Jagwar said:

And you just provided evidence for what I was saying. Do you know for a fact that Kimbrel put himself above his teammates?  Hyde (and Ebel) was much closer to the field than Palmer. He had every opportunity to pull Kimbrel. And he decided to leave him in. 

In the end, you very well could be correct in your speculation. But let's get some actual sources and facts first before making a blanket accusation. 

Managers aren’t going to throw their players under the bus. You’re never going to hear that. Trust your eyes man.

[Explosivo]

35 minutes ago, Jagwar said:

And you just provided evidence for what I was saying. Do you know for a fact that Kimbrel put himself above his teammates?  Hyde (and Ebel) was much closer to the field than Palmer. He had every opportunity to pull Kimbrel. And he decided to leave him in. 

In the end, you very well could be correct in your speculation. But let's get some actual sources and facts first before making a blanket accusation. 

And it took all of 30 minute for the injury to be disclosed which means he hid it from Hyde and the trainer when they went out to check on him. It’s clear as day. Dude placed himself above the team and Hyde should be absolutely livid he believed him before sending him to the showers and bringing in Tate. His outing on Friday was similar so it can be reasonable to assume he was injured then as well. If I’m Hyde, I’d use this as a way to build character for the rest of the team and highlight what Kimbrel did as the wrong side of things. Team first always. Honesty always.

[Bemorewins]

15 minutes ago, Explosivo said:

And it took all of 30 minute for the injury to be disclosed which means he hid it from Hyde and the trainer when they went out to check on him. It’s clear as day. Dude placed himself above the team and Hyde should be absolutely livid he believed him before sending him to the showers and bringing in Tate. His outing on Friday was similar so it can be reasonable to assume he was injured then as well. If I’m Hyde, I’d use this as a way to build character for the rest of the team and highlight what Kimbrel did as the wrong side of things. Team first always. Honesty always.

Is it a surprise that he is injured? I mean what was the likely outcome given the usage rate? I don't think that Kimbrel is the only one to blame, he didn't keep calling for himself to come into game nor did he sign himself. We kinda had to know/should have known what we were getting with a guy (who was once great but is now at the end of his career).

[Explosivo]

1 minute ago, Bemorewins said:

Is it a surprise that he is injured? I mean what was the likely outcome given the usage rate? I don't think that Kimbrel is the only one to blame, he didn't keep calling for himself to come into game nor did he sign himself. We kinda had to know/should have known what we were getting with a guy (who was once great but is now at the end of his career).

He pitches the same usage as the rest of the guys. Quite simply put, he’s old. He can’t handle the closer role any longer if he can’t be called upon to close out games and nab saves when needed. Him not being able to do his job means more pressure put on someone else to carry his load. On top of that, he has likely said “naw, I’m good” more times than just now and well, there’s a lot of close games in baseball. So now we need two closers because the old man can’t hack it? 

[Bemorewins]

1 minute ago, Explosivo said:

He pitches the same usage as the rest of the guys. Quite simply put, he’s old. He can’t handle the closer role any longer if he can’t be called upon to close out games and nab saves when needed. Him not being able to do his job means more pressure put on someone else to carry his load. On top of that, he has likely said “naw, I’m good” more times than just now and well, there’s a lot of close games in baseball. So now we need two closers because the old man can’t hack it? 

I mean it wasn't like he wasn't suspect and didn't lose his closer's role last season. Was it very hard to understand that at his age, he would need a reduced work load? 

It's too late to do anything about it now. We just have to survive until the deadline.

But it's safe to say that if you are struggling to put the A's pedestrian hitters away, you probably can't be counted on very reliably in high leverage situations right now.

[Explosivo]

12 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

I mean it wasn't like he wasn't suspect and didn't lose his closer's role last season. Was it very hard to understand that at his age, he would need a reduced work load? 

It's too late to do anything about it now. We just have to survive until the deadline.

But it's safe to say that if you are struggling to put the A's pedestrian hitters away, you probably can't be counted on very reliably in high leverage situations right now.

Agreed, park him on the IL. 

[Bemorewins]

3 minutes ago, Explosivo said:

Agreed, park him on the IL. 

The IL is most likely the solution for the team. I don't see a solution for him to become effective with the other relievers around him. We simply don't have the type of bullpen that can buffet him by keeping him from being used frequently.

The good news is that our offense and starting pitcher should be good enough to keep us afloat until the trade deadline. 

[Explosivo]

2 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

The IL is most likely the solution for the team. I don't see a solution for him to become effective with the other relievers around him. We simply don't have the type of bullpen that can buffet him by keeping him from being used frequently.

The good news is that our offense and starting pitcher should be good enough to keep us afloat until the trade deadline. 

I agree man. Put him on the 15 then 60 then maybe his arm will be strong enough for the closing stretch. Or use him as a trade piece, no clue.

[Jagwar]

2 hours ago, Explosivo said:

Managers aren’t going to throw their players under the bus. You’re never going to hear that. Trust your eyes man.

I know what my eyes saw, and my first thought was injury. But I'm not one to pull out the torch and pitchfork without knowing exactly what is going on.  

[foxfield]

There are an awful lot of assumptions here that are premature. 
 

Athletes want to perform and Kimbrel has every reason and right to do the same. My guess is that he wants to perform well enough that the O’s pick up the option for next year. 
 

He knows his body better than anyone and we don’t know the situation other than he has seemed off. We also know his usage rate is unsustainable. 
 

It’s a tough time for the O’s but hopefully there is a way to manage. Good to see Means have a very nice outing in his rehab. My guess is we are about to see how creative Elias and Hyde can be with mixing and maxing pieces. 
 

…Crosses fingers. 

[oldfan]

He didn't look right on Friday, should not have pitched the rest of the weekend. Hyde's bullpen management is a little sketchy at times, uses too many pitchers to get a few outs late in games.