International Signings This Week...

[Mackus]

Hobgood was drafted by us because of his signability. Not as the BPA...Thats a big problem.

He absolutely was not.

He wasn't asking for the big bonuses like some other players were, but Jordan definitively thought that he was the best high school arm available. He's said repeatedly that Hobgood was his BPA even if he wasn't some other publications BPA and other independent sources have also said that the Orioles didn't pass on Matzek, Wheeler, and others because of signability concerns, they simply were in love with Hobgood.

He had Hobgood #3 on his board, I believe, behind only Strasburg and Ackley. They said that once Ackley was taken, they knew they'd be going with Hobgood.

[hoosiers]

Hobgood was drafted by us because of his signability. Not as the BPA...Thats a big problem...Filling multiple holes with stopgap aging veterans Thats a Big problem.. Also knowing that the team is severely short on high end postional talent ...especially at AA & AAA, Thats a Big Problem.

If they arent going to sign the Mark Texeira's of the world the least they could do is invest money into high end international players. Whats a few million for the next Tejada like player coming out of the DR. You cant get that guy without paying a top bonus.... Sign 30-50 lesser guys is like slinging crap on a wall & hoping some actually sticks. Lower risk I suppose..But also lower reward. The Orioles dont have the luxury of the later.

If your AM .... You'd be a fool to think Snyder & Bell are on the doorstep. Many here were planning on those two by June 1st. We wont see either by June 1st & will be lucky to see either before September.

If you want to keep throwing darts on a board in a drunken rampage, go ahead.

There are more "lesser" DR guys holding the number one organizational prospect ranking of MLB teams than higher $ guys - Mejia, Castro, and Escobar were all signed for under $50k while Carlos Santana signed for $75k. Most high $ bonus guys receiving $3M have talent equivalent to late first rounders in the US draft who receive $1.2M or so. I presume you already knew this before posting .... It's ironic that everyone wants to point out the Twins signed Miguel Sano for over $3M, but that he falls behind two first rounders who each received less than $2M and an international prospect signed six years ago with no signing bonus mentioned. Folks don't mention Michael Inoa of the As who signed for over $4M and was not on the A top 10 prospects entering 2010. As posted earlier, there are many pitfalls internationally and IMO, it is unrealistic to expect the organization to ramp up from the pittance spending going on before AM to $6M to 10M internationally in two years.

AM's job regarding prospects is to collect as many good ones as possible. He has done that in spades through trades, higher international spend and increased spend in the later rounds of the US draft. If the prospects he is collecting don't pan out, it is ultimately his responsibility, but he is highly dependent on folks he has put in positions to evaluate this talent.

[Lucky Jim]

What is the going rate for Dominican players in 2010?

I agree Tejada was a bad example. But I think you stand to fare better by drafting higher rated guys. Not always the case no matter if they are US Players or Dominican Players... My base point is the O's are being cheap.

I think you haven't examined the issue. And I can guarantee the Orioles have. I might not agree w/ them, but I don't think it's about being cheap, and I know it's not unexamined.

Starlin Castro is 20 years old. He signed for $60,000. He's the Cubs best prospect. Jose Reyes signed for $20,000. Hanley Ramirez signed for $55,000. Way back when, David Ortiz signed for $15,000.

[Sports Guy]

If you want to keep throwing darts on a board in a drunken rampage, go ahead.

There are more "lesser" DR guys holding the number one organizational prospect ranking of MLB teams than higher $ guys - Mejia, Castro, and Escobar were all signed for under $50k while Carlos Santana signed for $75k. Most high $ bonus guys receiving $3M have talent equivalent to late first rounders in the US draft who receive $1.2M or so. I presume you already knew this before posting .... It's ironic that everyone wants to point out the Twins signed Miguel Sano for over $3M, but that he falls behind two first rounders who each received less than $2M and an international prospect signed six years ago with no signing bonus mentioned. Folks don't mention Michael Inoa of the As who signed for over $4M and was not on the A top 10 prospects entering 2010. As posted earlier, there are many pitfalls internationally and IMO, it is unrealistic to expect the organization to ramp up from the pittance spending going on before AM to $6M to 10M internationally in two years.

AM's job regarding prospects is to collect as many good ones as possible. He has done that in spades through trades, higher international spend and increased spend in the later rounds of the US draft. If the prospects he is collecting don't pan out, it is ultimately his responsibility, but he is highly dependent on folks he has put in positions to evaluate this talent.

I think you haven't examined the issue. And I can guarantee the Orioles have. I might not agree w/ them, but I don't think it's about being cheap, and I know it's not unexamined.

Starlin Castro is 20 years old. He signed for $60,000. He's the Cubs best prospect. Jose Reyes signed for $20,000. Hanley Ramirez signed for $55,000. Way back when, David Ortiz signed for $15,000.

Where did you get the signing bonuses? Just a google search for random players or is there a site?

[Lucky Jim]

Where did you get the signing bonuses? Just a google search for random players or is there a site?

Yeah. Googling. And, trust me, it was a huge pain in the ass.

[Three Run Homer]

He absolutely was not.

He wasn't asking for the big bonuses like some other players were, but Jordan definitively thought that he was the best high school arm available. He's said repeatedly that Hobgood was his BPA even if he wasn't some other publications BPA and other independent sources have also said that the Orioles didn't pass on Matzek, Wheeler, and others because of signability concerns, they simply were in love with Hobgood.

He had Hobgood #3 on his board, I believe, behind only Strasburg and Ackley. They said that once Ackley was taken, they knew they'd be going with Hobgood.

Jordan says that he thought that Hobgood was the best player available, and I have no reason to doubt his honesty.

But most people in the industry didn't agree with Jordan's assessment, and unfortunately so far it looks like the doubters may have been right.

[Roll Tide]

If you want to keep throwing darts on a board in a drunken rampage, go ahead.

There are more "lesser" DR guys holding the number one organizational prospect ranking of MLB teams than higher $ guys - Mejia, Castro, and Escobar were all signed for under $50k while Carlos Santana signed for $75k. Most high $ bonus guys receiving $3M have talent equivalent to late first rounders in the US draft who receive $1.2M or so. I presume you already knew this before posting .... It's ironic that everyone wants to point out the Twins signed Miguel Sano for over $3M, but that he falls behind two first rounders who each received less than $2M and an international prospect signed six years ago with no signing bonus mentioned. Folks don't mention Michael Inoa of the As who signed for over $4M and was not on the A top 10 prospects entering 2010. As posted earlier, there are many pitfalls internationally and IMO, it is unrealistic to expect the organization to ramp up from the pittance spending going on before AM to $6M to 10M internationally in two years.

AM's job regarding prospects is to collect as many good ones as possible. He has done that in spades through trades, higher international spend and increased spend in the later rounds of the US draft. If the prospects he is collecting don't pan out, it is ultimately his responsibility, but he is highly dependent on folks he has put in positions to evaluate this talent.

Drunken Rampage :laughlol: Unlike you I never drink during the day & rarely do at night.

The Twins continue to build a strong well rounded farm team that constantly feeds their team replacements for their departing high priced Free Agents/Free Agents to be.

The Orioles farm system still sucks... We have better pitching in the system then in the past decade. But our organizational position guys are low end. Bell is probably the only high end guy in AA or AAA. And he was traded for ...Not drafted. The Orioles have no power hitting 1B in the system, No SS in the system (atleast not one whos close to coming in & contributing). If you switch Bell to 1B you can change the above statement to 3B.

[Mackus]

Jordan says that he thought that Hobgood was the best player available, and I have no reason to doubt his honesty.

But most people in the industry didn't agree with Jordan's assessment, and unfortunately so far it looks like the doubters may have been right.

Whether or not he was a good selection is certainly debatable.

Where or not he was drafted because they didn't want to spend big money is certainly not debatable.

[Mackus]

The Twins continue to build a strong well rounded farm team that constantly feeds their team replacements for their departing high priced Free Agents/Free Agents to be.

The Orioles farm system still sucks... We have better pitching in the system then in the past decade. But our organizational position guys are low end. Bell is probably the only high end guy in AA or AAA. And he was traded for ...Not drafted. The Orioles have no power hitting 1B in the system, No SS in the system (atleast not one whos close to coming in & contributing). If you switch Bell to 1B you can change the above statement to 3B.

Who is arguing that we shouldn't be signing players from the DR?

All we are saying is that the argument that "We have to sign high priced DR free agents" is a flawed argument. I think if we are going to go for some of the less expensive players, that we should sign many more of them, I'd still like to see the total monetary commitment to international FAs be on par of exceeding most other teams. But to suggest that the only way to keep up on the international scene is by going after the $2-4M players is simply woefully uninformed. I'd like us to sign a couple guys like that as they come along if we are really, really high on them, but signing ten or twenty times more of the less expensive guys is good strategy as well.

I'm not sure that they are even doing that much, which is why I'm still unhappy with the overall level of our international presence. We're failing because we are still behind in overall dollars spent, not because we aren't signing the super high priced guys.

[BrunoCherrytown]

I think you haven't examined the issue. And I can guarantee the Orioles have. I might not agree w/ them, but I don't think it's about being cheap, and I know it's not unexamined.

Starlin Castro is 20 years old. He signed for $60,000. He's the Cubs best prospect. Jose Reyes signed for $20,000. Hanley Ramirez signed for $55,000. Way back when, David Ortiz signed for $15,000.

While I agree wholeheartedly that in the past the best players signed for drastically cheaper rates, every team is now looking into the international markets in some way shape or form. It's the new exciting thing to do.

And just business 101 would lend you to think that the going rate on the Castros and Hanley's etc moving forward may continue to rise astronomically with more teams scouring the globe for them.

So if let's say Hanley came out a couple of years ago he may have been the Inoa or Sano with regard to signing bonus.

I think the Yankees spending sprees will only fuel the rush of teams like the Pirates and Blue Jays A's and Twins even further into Intn'l markets. And that will drive up the price even more.

If we aren't going to be legit players on any big ticket items in any type of market besides overslot draft picks - we will be in trouble.

There will always be diamond in the roughs - but I don't think it should be our only mode of operating. And we do that on free agents and it looks that way on international as well.

I hope that changes not just on International but on every level.

[hoosiers]

Where did you get the signing bonuses? Just a google search for random players or is there a site?

The BA Prospect Handbook has this information for the top 30 prospects in each organization and posts the same information on the top 10 prospects on the web-site. BA has published at least one article in the past year on the lack of value at the high end of the international market. Of course, when one high end signing is Miguel Cabrera, he tends to make the entire pool look better. Hopefully, if teams improve their scouting, more prospects at the high end will pan out. However, generally it is the nature of high end bidding auctions that buyers overpay. The Braves have several prospects in their top 10 signed in the $250k - $800k range. I think there is some value in this range as well and would like to see the Os sign a player or two in this range.

IMO, people who believe AM is cheap are really observing a GM more concerned with efficient, value-based spending.

[hoosiers]

Drunken Rampage :laughlol: Unlike you I never drink during the day & rarely do at night.

Your posts reflect someone highly misinformed.

[Lucky Jim]

While I agree wholeheartedly that in the past the best players signed for drastically cheaper rates, every team is now looking into the international markets in some way shape or form. It's the new exciting thing to do.

And just business 101 would lend you to think that the going rate on the Castros and Hanley's etc moving forward may continue to rise astronomically with more teams scouring the globe for them.

So if let's say Hanley came out a couple of years ago he may have been the Inoa or Sano with regard to signing bonus.

I think the Yankees spending sprees will only fuel the rush of teams like the Pirates and Blue Jays A's and Twins even further into Intn'l markets. And that will drive up the price even more.

If we aren't going to be legit players on any big ticket items in any type of market besides overslot draft picks - we will be in trouble.

There will always be diamond in the roughs - but I don't think it should be our only mode of operating. And we do that on free agents and it looks that way on international as well.

I hope that changes not just on International but on every level.

I'm not willing to say that. And the point here shouldn't be "now we have to pay astronomical prices." The point should be "the market has been inflated by competition, and anyone assuming that DR players are a value is ignoring the influence of that competition on signing bonuses."

As I said, Castro signed relatively recently for $60,000. If in the last few years he's suddenly a $1.5m guy, then I'm increasingly inclined to want out of the DR buying binge.

The key here - like any market - is to find undervaluation. Identifying raw players who will develop may be what we're doing, and it may make sense. At a minimum you need to pay value. In all cases, you need to identify and account for risk. These players are - almost as a rule - pure projection, and that projection is made more difficult by cultural issues (the move to the U.S.) and by the way the system has incentivized fraud.

Neftali Feliz signed for $100,000 in 2005. Erick Aybar signed for $100,000 in 2002. Johnny Cueto was reportedly signed for $3,500 in 2004.

[NewMarketSean]

So what if the DR has been exploited to the point of it not being worth the time or money any more to scout and sign players from there.

What about Japan? Korea? Venezuela? The Netherlands?

The lack of international signings are a joke, and more proof that this organization is cheap. Even if they did studies and have ruled out international signings as "not worth it"...what else are they doing to make up for that absence of talent?

[Lucky Jim]

So what if the DR has been exploited to the point of it not being worth the time or money any more to scout and sign players from there.

What about Japan? Korea? Venezuela? The Netherlands?

The lack of international signings are a joke, and more proof that this organization is cheap. Even if they did studies and have ruled out international signings as "not worth it"...what else are they doing to make up for that absence of talent?

Do you know anything about any of those places? How many viable prospects there are? Whether the products are worth the outlay?

Do you know that we're not there?

They're still spending in the D.R. (though this needs to go up), because they've determined there's value, it's just hidden value. There's no shame in that.

You claim cheapness but you don't seem to base it on anything. You seem to lack both information and a sense of scale.