It might be time to cleanout the clubhouse

[Guest rochester]

Trade Jones when his value is less than it has been? He has definitely become the OH "favorite to blame." Think - name any team that may have an interest in AJ - then tell us what you would trade for him right now. The kid is 24 years old and, although I feel a temporary trip to Norfolk would not hurt, it is because (IMO) he is trying too hard to carry this joke of an offense. Actually I have seen some improvement since the beginning of the year. If we were going to move him the time would have been last offseason.

Nick - To say he is untouchable is ridiculous - no one on a 15-40 team is untouchable. Saying that, the fact that he has maintained strong, consistent numbers without the benefit of ML hitters surrounding him is pretty amazing. Could you imagine him having some support before and after him in the lineup?

Pie? Flavor of the month when healthy and may be legit. However, potential and results can only be meaningful if you have an OF (CF, LF) after your name, not DL.

Weiters? The SW Jesus is way too old. If he can ever approach Mauer then we are in for a treat, until he leaves town on the Boras express.

Infield - Scott Moore/Garret Atkins.

This could be the worst I have ever seen in the majors. I understand that stats will say bad defense loses x amount of games but what does it do to a pitcher that sees the holes around him - hello Mr. Custer.

One tidbit of a tangible that I see re: defense. The MFYs - since Tex has been on board is it me or has Cano gotten a lot better - plus, anyone else notice that he can play another step or two towards 2nd?

Pitching - I still believe our young guys have great potential.(see above hitting and Custer analogy...). However, there is no way we will get away with not dealing some of them.

FA's?

Atkins-no need to say anything.

Miggy - respectable - anyone who thinks switching to third from anywhere is easy has never played the game. I can't imagine the difference at that level. Been an ok pick-up that would be better if he is the placeholder we all thought he would be.

Gonzalez? No round 2 pick plus if anyone mentions Cliff Lee this debacle of "buying" an arm will completely shut the door on that. Plus, until we have a ML offense and defense it Strasburg couldn't win here.

[JTrea81]

This is funny...So, you are saying we should rebuild again...Aren't you the guy who is always screaming for premium talent?

The Orioles need to look for guys to trade for, like Haren, and they need to move their tradeable veteran pieces.

Trading Nick shouldn't even be a consideration because no one is going to pay what it would take to move him.

I am, but I've come to the realization under Andy MacPhail that adding premium talent will never happen.

It's what we need to do, but he won't do it.

So yes, we'll likely have to rebuild again with a new GM after 2011.

[ShaneDawg85]

I am, but I've come to the realization under Andy MacPhail that adding premium talent will never happen.

It's what we need to do, but he won't do it.

So yes, we'll likely have to rebuild again with a new GM after 2011.

You assume that there will be a new GM after 2011 simply because MacPhail's contract is up. That means nothing. There are these little things called extensions, or even worse, for you, new contracts. When it comes out MacPhail will no longer be the GM, I'll buy it. Until then, keep dreaming.

[bringinbaines]

Getting rid of Markakis would be the worst move the Orioles could possibly make. Unless we got four or five solid major leaguers it would be a dumb move. Markakis is by far the best weapon we have and it is proven by the fact that he leads the league in intentional walks. Why can't some of our fans see it when other teams see it? Markakis is legit. I would listen to offers for all other players, but Markakis is untouchable.

I would have to get amazing offers to deal Matusz, Arrieta, and Wieters as well.

[Old#5fan]

Getting rid of Markakis would be the worst move the Orioles could possibly make. Unless we got four or five solid major leaguers it would be a dumb move. Markakis is by far the best weapon we have and it is proven by the fact that he leads the league in intentional walks. Why can't some of our fans see it when other teams see it? Markakis is legit. I would listen to offers for all other players, but Markakis is untouchable.

I would have to get amazing offers to deal Matusz, Arrieta, and Wieters as well.

Cmon, you wouldn't trade Markakis and say Tillman or Arietta for Zack Grienke or Clay Bucholtz if either the Royals or Boston were dumb enough to be suckered into it?

Or how about a straight swap for Ryan Zimmerman of the Nats? You would have to be nuts not to be willing to trade Markakis. In fact, next to Wieters he probably is our best potential trade chip we have!

[GoldGlove21]

I've been hanging onto the fact that we need to keep everybody we have to try to win in the second half but perhaps it's time for a complete clubhouse cleaning at the deadline.

I would keep Wieters, Matusz and Jones because they aren't quite used to the losing culture yet.

But Markakis probably needs to go, as does Roberts. Hearing Tony's comments in another thread, I think this clubhouse has too many players that are used to losing and Markakis is one of those players IMO.

I think it might be best for him and the team to part ways and since he is under control for some time, we could probably get a good haul for him considering the lineup is the reason he is underperforming power wise.

Roberts would be harder to trade for a good return, but I would look to try to sneak him through waivers if he's healthy in August as nobody would want his contract.

And the vets like Wigginton, Tejada, Millwood, Guthrie etc would all go as well.

So clean everybody out, and start over with younger established ML players if you can, and try to make some trades in the offseason to rebuild this thing once again. By tearing everything apart, we should also lock up Rendon for the 1st round pick as well.

I never thought I would want this, but I really think this might be our best course now. Baltimore is a complete mess.

I like how Nick Markakis plays the game and by all means he is our best player, but he is not $12M-$15M per season good on a team like the Orioles. He would be that good or better in Boston's lineup. The Orioles have a ton of holes to fill and if trading Markakis could land two legit starters in addition to a prospect or two then I would make the deal. I am not buying that Nick doesn't want to win, but he is our most valuable player.

I know I am going to get a bunch of "You don't trade the face of the franchise", but Kakes is the face of a bad franchise. If it were me I would call the Brewers and see if Markakis for Fielder was atleast something they would consider even if we had to add a propect or two. You then use Markakis' money to lock up Fielder. Fielder is a clubhouse leader and might the guy we need to put a fire under the players rear-ends.

The second guy I look to trade is Adam Jones because he also has value and I think there is NO CHANCE he extends with the Orioles unless they make him an offer quickly. If he even sniffs free agency he is gone IMO. I bet the return for Jones would be a good one as well. I would imagine that Jones and Tillman could land Gonzalez from the Padres, but I am not sure what kind of leader he is and if I am giving uo a lot in a trade then I want a great player and a leader. I think Fielder is the idea fit here in Baltimore. If hits the free agent market then the Orioles need to be all over that guy, because Boston is likely to land one first baseman. Who are really good options over the next 3 seasons if those two guys are gone?

[GoldGlove21]

Cmon, you wouldn't trade Markakis and say Tillman or Arietta for Zack Grienke or Clay Bucholtz if either the Royals or Boston were dumb enough to be suckered into it?

Or how about a straight swap for Ryan Zimmerman of the Nats? You would have to be nuts not to be willing to trade Markakis. In fact, next to Wieters he probably is our best potential trade chip we have!

We can't hit, why would we give up Markakis and Tillman or Arrieta for a pitcher? I would trade Jones and Bell for Zimmerman that is for sure. I really like what Zimmerman brings to the table. Adding Zimmerman and signing a guy like Fielder would make the Orioles better in a hurry IMO. I think the Orioles need three impact bats in the heart of their order. We might have one in Wieters, but Zimmerman and Fielder would give us two others to go along with Markakis. That would make for a very good top 5 in the lineup assuming Roberts comes back healthy.

Fielder would be option A for me though. Love the guys attitude, leadership, and ability. He would be a monster at the Yard.

[JTrea81]

Olney actually addressed this in his blog apparently, but I'm not an Insider.

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog?name=olney_buster&id=5254513

Anybody care to post a summary of what he said?

[carolinaoriole]

Olney actually addressed this in his blog apparently, but I'm not an Insider.

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog?name=olney_buster&id=5254513

Anybody care to post a summary of what he said?

In his blog Olney says that he talked to an evaluater and the guy said that the Orioles should build the team around Jones,Weiters and Markakis.

[TonySoprano]

Olney actually addressed this in his blog apparently, but I'm not an Insider.

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog?name=olney_buster&id=5254513

Anybody care to post a summary of what he said?

Most of it...

Baltimore's organizational concerns

About a week ago, I talked with a talent evaluator who had seen the Orioles recently. "I don't know what the problem with [Nick] Markakis is," he said, as if puzzling over a math problem. "I thought he would just keep getting better, but he really hasn't taken a step back. I'm not sure anymore if he's going to develop."

Markakis has three homers this year, Adam Jones is hitting .249 and Matt Wieters isn't doing much damage at the plate. A question being asked by some who watch the Orioles is whether the constant losing (they are on pace to win 45 games) is infecting the great core of young Baltimore players.

And as Andy MacPhail addressed the media after firing Dave Trembley, he talked about this, talked about the need to get the young players turned around.

The evaluator said Friday that what he thinks the Orioles need to do is improve the team around Markakis, Jones and Wieters. "Your instinct is say that they should trade off their veterans for spare parts before the deadline," said the evaluator, who was talking about Ty Wigginton, Luke Scott and Kevin Millwood, specifically. "But I almost think those guys would have more value to the organization if you keep them, to stabilize the young players. The second half of the season is going to be hard for them, and they need support. You can't just continually get your ass kicked without having it affect you."

[24fps]

LOL I think it's a riot that Tony posts something similar about Andy needing to trade members of the core, and when I post the same thing just about everybody thinks it's a horrible idea and bashes.

Like I said, this was based off of Tony's comments.

A serious shift in the culture is needed, and to do that you might need to switch out some core members for players that aren't used to losing.

That's pretty much what he said, and I tend to agree with him.

I agree that a shift in the culture would be very useful but I believe it could be better effected by replacing the entire coaching staff and using some combination of money and minor league pitching to put two genuine major league hitters on the team. That would change the culture alright, especially the last part.

Tell Andy he can take a long as he wants...heck, he can take until 10:05 AM April 1, 2011 if he really has to.

Let me see if I can summarize your thesis - the one that prompted you to start this thread in the first place. It's your worry that certain young team members might be psychologically tainted and that supposed taint might somehow be communicable. Therefore, even though there's not the slightest evidence that such a notion is based in objective reality, the best course of action is to nonetheless dismember the team and spend several more years starting over.

Well, who can argue with that?

[Brady9Fan]

I really don't agree with *cleaning house*. On paper, the team doesn't look half bad, just cursed...A new manager could help, along with brand new coaches...*ahem* a new hitting coach.

Samuel stepped into a bad situation, but maybe he can fire up some players in the process. I think the team just needs some motivation, along with a volitile manager who can start a fire under them. I don't think that guy is Samuel. Maybe someone like Paul O'Neill who would scare the rookies if they keep losing.

[connja]

I think it's time to make some trades but we are going to need to move the lasts bits of value we have that haven't failed yet. Tillman and arieta package could net us a nice slugger.

[foxfield]

Olney actually addressed this in his blog apparently, but I'm not an Insider.

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog?name=olney_buster&id=5254513

Anybody care to post a summary of what he said?

This post is a perfect microcosm of what drives us nuts about you:

Olney actually addressed this in his blog apparently, but I am not an Insider. Anybody care to post a summary of what he said?

Did Olney actually address it or did he apparently do so?

Can you intelligently claim something to be apparently so and actually so in the same sentence?

And to top it off, you seem to say, "Hey, I am just throwing BS out here but can anyone else throw some fuel on the fire?

:cussing:

Seriously....it's your fault.

[fish113d]

No, too much needs to be done for MacPhail to do it. He'd take 3 more years to pull off all the moves that need to be made.

We need a "gunslinger."

Maybe Brett Favre is available...???