What if Duquette's plan for 2012....works?

[El Gordo]

We own an option on Reynolds.

I realize that. We could not pick it up if he sucks. Pick it up and trade him if he has a great year, or offer him an extension. Are you suggesting it makes most sense to trade him now because he won't get any more valuable?

[weams]

I realize that. We could not pick it up if he sucks. Pick it up and trade him if he has a great year, or offer him an extension. Are you suggesting it makes most sense to trade him now because he won't get any more valuable?

No, I like him. And his value is probably close to his money, like Guthrie, you won't get much back. It's just if he blows up and goes all Jose Bautista this year, you just pick up the option. Or extend as you advised.

[El Gordo]

No, I like him. And his value is probably close to his money, like Guthrie, you won't get much back. It's just if he blows up and goes all Jose Bautista this year, you just pick up the option. Or extend as you advised.

The last thing you want to do IMO, is trade him now after his 0.3 WAR season as SG suggests.

[weams]

The last thing you want to do IMO, is trade him now after his 0.3 WAR season as SG suggests.

And we are not one of them.

[Sports Guy]

The last thing you want to do IMO, is trade him now after his 0.3 WAR season as SG suggests.

I never said to trade him now..I said anytime between now and the deadline. But don't let the truth get in the way of your own stupidity.

If someone wants to pay for him now, sure trade him...but he likely doesn't carry the value now that he would if he had a good first half.

[El Gordo]

I never said to trade him now..I said anytime between now and the deadline. But don't let the truth get in the way of your own stupidity.

If someone wants to pay for him now, sure trade him...but he likely doesn't carry the value now that he would if he had a good first half.

Besides Jones who do you think should be traded now? My point is except for Jones, I don't see the value of trading anyone before then.

[Fan4Life]

Besides Jones who do you think should be traded now? My point is except for Jones, I don't see the value of trading anyone before then.

Queue....

If he pulls the trigger on a Jones trade and brings back some great players, a good deal of your complaints may be subsided. It's too early... hang on...

[Sports Guy]

Besides Jones who do you think should be traded now? My point is except for Jones, I don't see the value of trading anyone before then.

Lots of merit to trading Johnson now but the argument is a solid one to wait.

If someone really valued hardy right now, I wouldn't hesitate either.

[Owen21]

And we are not one of them.

Of course we're not...without Betemit we may have qualified

[El Gordo]

Lots of merit to trading Johnson now but the argument is a solid one to wait.

If someone really valued hardy right now, I wouldn't hesitate either.

It makes more sense to trade Johnson after a season as a closer. His value would be a lot more. Hardy may have contractual stipulations prohibiting a trade right now. But if your goal is to contend in two years you'd be hard pressed to get a better SS in that time frame, and the prospects you would get back for him now, aren't likely to be ML ready by then.So it pretty much comes back to Jones.

[SteveA]

His plan is looking fine 4-5 years down the road.

But he needs to do more NOW, moves that can effect things in the next 2 years or so...so that some kind of direction is established.

Who hijacked Sports Guy's keyboard?

The Sports Guy I know has, for years, said if you can't contend in year X then the players you put on the field in Year X don't matter at all. You don't wast a single penny on a multi-year contract for a 30+ year old player because that player won't be there on that day, which is always several years in the future and always receding, when we actually can contend. Who you put on the field this year doesn't matter if you aren't going to win it. And that taking steps towards winning are useless, don't spend a single penny on a guy who will get you from 65 to 75 wins if that guy won't be around to help you contend.

Now suddenly you are worried about the team he is putting on the field this year?

You have said you like the organizational structural things he has done, as do I.

He has brought in a lot of marginal talent, much of which will be forgotten in a year or two -- but unlike previous regimes he hasn't spent lots of money on these guys (DLee, Gregg, Gonzalez, Vlad, etc). Yeah, the 2nd year for Betemit is a waste. And maybe he could have gotten younger players for Guthrie (note the maybe) -- now you have been demanding that Guthrie be traded for a longt ime, and now that he finally is, you don't like the take. Hey, I'm not crazy about the take either, but we have absolutely no way of knowing if he could have gotten better. We just fired a GM whose best skill was getting maximum value back in trades, just about any other GM is going to suffer in comparison in that one respect.

As for "blocking" guys in our farm system -- we don't have a lot in the way of ML ready talent. If Nick Johnson can hit, he'll "block" Mahoney? Are Avery and Hoes "blocked"? They have never played AAA ball yet. DD apparently is someone who believes in not rushing minor league talent. We have rushed prized prospects (Cabrera, Matusz) and have had some catastrophic results, so I'm willing to try it his way. If an Antonelli or Johnson or Eveland DOES turn out to be a quality major leaguer and winds up "blocking" someone else, well, that's a good proble to have considering we are reputed to be about the 17th best farm system with the bulk of our talent in the low minors a few years away.

No, I'm not crazy about every move he has made. But he hasn't made the type of commitments (big money for relief pitchers who are likely to fluctuate in performance, guaranteeing a cleanup spot to Vlad, etc) that our previous GMs have made. He has made moves which APPEAR to improve our infrastructure (scouting, player development, conditioning, consistent coaching through all levels of the system). Those moves should result in getting more out of the guys in the system now, and better players coming into the system in the future. He is giving the cavalry the year they deserve to sink or swim once and for all, rather than tossing them away and saying there's no way we can be any good until we have Bundy and Machado at OPACY. But he has brought in competition and depth so that if those guys do falter again, or can't show they are making strides, we will not be starting Mitch Atkins or Chris Waters or Victor Zambrano or Dennis Sarfate.

So that seems like a "plan" to me:

1 -- make infrastructure improvements which should help down the line

2 -- give the present core one last chance to succeed before giving up on being competitive until #1 reaps benefits down the road

3 -- augment the present core with depth to provide competition for guys that are here without spending millions on guys and guaranteeing

them spots in the lineup or bullpen. Yes some of that depth will wind up at AAA but because the true talent in our farm system is bottom heavy,

I don't see this depth "blocking" anyone

4 -- begin taking steps in the international market

5 -- he appears to be emphasizing onbase percentage, something that has been lacking in our offense for a long time

That appears to be the plan, insofar as it affects down the line a few years, and 2012. It's not so clear what the "plan" is for 2013 and 2014,

as no decision ahs been made on Jones yet. It could be that he wants to see what happens this year before the short term direction for 2013/14 is determined.

[El Gordo]

Of course we're not...without Betemit we may have qualified

We spent 3M on Chen 4M, on Wada, 1.5 M on Chavez, 1.35 M on O'Day, 1 M on Betemit, this year.

[33rdst]

I think Duquette clearly articulated his plan when he arrived and he has gone about implementing it rather quickly. He wants to have a winning ball club this year and he wants to develop an organization that can win consistently in the future. Basically this plan has two parts. First, address the immediate needs of the major league team by building around a core of offensive players and add as much pitching depth as possible. That means that trading Jones, Wieters, Hardy, and Markakis is not part of the plan. I also think Buck has identified a few players he also doesn't want traded like Johnson and Andino.

The second part of the plan, which is more long term, involves improving scouting and player development so the organization can grow from within.

IMO Duquette has been very consistent in his approach to these objectives both in terms of the players he has procured and the changes he's made to the organization.

You can disagree with the players Duquette has acquired and argue that he hasn't done enough,but you can't say his moves have not been consistent with what he has said he was going to do.

[UpstateNYfan]

I think there would be many unhappy OHer's if the team was .500 or better.:scratchchinhmm:

[Sports Guy]

It makes more sense to trade Johnson after a season as a closer. His value would be a lot more. Hardy may have contractual stipulations prohibiting a trade right now. But if your goal is to contend in two years you'd be hard pressed to get a better SS in that time frame, and the prospects you would get back for him now, aren't likely to be ML ready by then.So it pretty much comes back to Jones.

1) You assume Johnson is successful as a closer....but if he is, I agree with you.

2) DD didn't sign Hardy...unless there is written language in the contract, I am not sure DD has to abide by what AM told him.

3) We can trade these guys and have a better team by the 2014 season...as of that point, we have no idea if Jones will be here that season...Reynolds isn't under contract at that point...Johnson and Hardy are under contract but Hardy has had his injury issues and JJ has been up and down in his career as a reliever.